(July 13, 2013 at 11:34 am)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote:1. All things are caused.(July 13, 2013 at 8:46 am)Consilius Wrote: What I am trying to say is that if I made a lightbulb right now, I could not claim to have invented the lightbulb.
The creator of the lightbulb is and can only be a man who did not have access to the lightbulb. A man who came before the lightbulb. He would have done his work by lamplight.
That's an objective, provable fact. I can build a table and take it to a patent office with similar results.
You really could've just said that. i wouldn't dispute the lightbulb thing with you.
your entire premise is dependent upon:
a) the universe being created by an intelligent being
b) this is the first universe ever to come into existence, so the creator of this (granting (a)), must be the inventor of the universe
evidence for a) and b) please.
FYI there's a model of the universe in astronomy that has the universe cycle from big bang, to an end, and then another big bang, and so on. you can find it on wikipedia. if you read a little more on wikipedia you'll find that time only exists after the big bang. so when you say before the universe, you want to clarify what on earth you mean.
2. The cause of all things must, therefore, be uncaused.
If the cause (Edison or whoever), truly invented the lightbulb, it is only possible that he worked by lamplight. Objective, testable fact.
This does not need to be the first universe for this to be true. The first universe would have to attribute its existence to its cause, which would still have to be uncaused. If such cause could sustain itself infinitely before the creation of that universe, why couldn't it do so after? Nothing can be infinite on one end and not on the other. Provable fact.
But say two of the uncaused causes existed anyway. Neither of them would have the absolute authority required to bring absolutely everything into existence, because a conflicting will exists that is not subject to the other's will. It exists on its own accord, and is therefore free from the authority of the other one. With more than one of these causes, another cause, singular in nature, is required to have authority over both of them; an ultimate will. Two rulers cannot rule together unless one allows the other to rule or a greater authority asked the two of them to rule together. Provable fact.
The cause of the universe brought about the universe at a finite point in time. It always had the ability to do so, so why isn't there an endless stream of universes that go on into the past? Why don't universes continually pop into existence every day? I can do or not do any activity without the physical need to do so because, I, as a human, can freely act. Provable fact. Therefore, the uncaused cause freely made the decision to bring about the universe because it never had anything preventing it from beginning a universe, and it will never have anything forcing it to begin a universe.