RE: Reflecting on Atheism.
November 16, 2013 at 5:01 pm
(This post was last modified: November 16, 2013 at 5:02 pm by arvind13.)
In reply to Genkaus:
"By the same metric, a Christian may give traditional reasons for going to Church on a Sunday or celebrating Easter - or he may give no reason at all. That would mean belief is irrelevant to their religion as well. Which makes Hinduism as much a religion as Christianity."
Except in Christianity, there is a theological structure that determines who is a Christian and who isn't. Who is a 'true' Christian. In Christianity, each of their practices have specific doctrinal reasons behind them. And there are certain actions (predicated on beliefs) and beliefs that are obligatory in order to be a Christian. For example, no Christian can ever believe that Jesus is the son of the Devil or that God doesn't exist and still be a Christian. In other words, Christian theology allows us to determine who is a Christian and who isn't
Among the Indian traditions no such structure or belief system exists. You can believe whatever you want and still be a member of these traditions and take part in the practices of the tradition. There is no source of excommunication. There is no criteria for saying who is a "Hindu" or "Buddhist" and who isn't.
"So, let's get this straight - for Hindu tradition to be regarded as part of a religious belief system, there would need to be huge theological tracts informing that belief system and the consequent practice. As it happens, there are huge theological tracts that tell you all about those ritual, but "that' a different matter"? Are you high?"
There are texts which tell us how to perform a ritual. The sequence of steps in performing a ritual. How does that make it theological or religious? That's like saying a Karate training book which outlines the sequence in executing a move is a religious book, or a yoga book which outlines certain steps is a religious text
"The assumption that those doctrines came from a divine source - that's what makes them central to their particular belief system and that's what gives them the authority. And guess what - its the same with Hinduism - gods are credited with the authorship of central doctrines - such as the Vedas - and that's what makes them central and authoritative to Hinduism."
Ok, what is a "divine source"? and what makes a belief system into a religious belief system? What makes a text, any text into a religious text?
As for the hindu traditions, we don't have religious doctrines. Texts like Vedas provide action heuristics and insights gleaned from practicing those actions much like Yoga or meditation. They don't make truth claims about the world. The thing about Vedas coming from the 'gods' or the mouth of Brahma is a story just like the puranas. The puranas don't have the status of truth claims. They are stories.
Look, you won't be able to make sense of what I'm saying or where I'm coming from unless you atleast glance at the research where my ideas come from. I sent you the link (what makes a phenomenon into a religion), but you just dismissed it as drivel without even reading it.
My whole purpose of starting this discussion thread was to engage in a discussion and get people interested in the new research that is going on in the social sciences, challenging the old paradigms; and to critically think about our common sense deeply sedimented assumptions.
not to engage in one upmanship or mudslinging.
"By the same metric, a Christian may give traditional reasons for going to Church on a Sunday or celebrating Easter - or he may give no reason at all. That would mean belief is irrelevant to their religion as well. Which makes Hinduism as much a religion as Christianity."
Except in Christianity, there is a theological structure that determines who is a Christian and who isn't. Who is a 'true' Christian. In Christianity, each of their practices have specific doctrinal reasons behind them. And there are certain actions (predicated on beliefs) and beliefs that are obligatory in order to be a Christian. For example, no Christian can ever believe that Jesus is the son of the Devil or that God doesn't exist and still be a Christian. In other words, Christian theology allows us to determine who is a Christian and who isn't
Among the Indian traditions no such structure or belief system exists. You can believe whatever you want and still be a member of these traditions and take part in the practices of the tradition. There is no source of excommunication. There is no criteria for saying who is a "Hindu" or "Buddhist" and who isn't.
"So, let's get this straight - for Hindu tradition to be regarded as part of a religious belief system, there would need to be huge theological tracts informing that belief system and the consequent practice. As it happens, there are huge theological tracts that tell you all about those ritual, but "that' a different matter"? Are you high?"
There are texts which tell us how to perform a ritual. The sequence of steps in performing a ritual. How does that make it theological or religious? That's like saying a Karate training book which outlines the sequence in executing a move is a religious book, or a yoga book which outlines certain steps is a religious text
"The assumption that those doctrines came from a divine source - that's what makes them central to their particular belief system and that's what gives them the authority. And guess what - its the same with Hinduism - gods are credited with the authorship of central doctrines - such as the Vedas - and that's what makes them central and authoritative to Hinduism."
Ok, what is a "divine source"? and what makes a belief system into a religious belief system? What makes a text, any text into a religious text?
As for the hindu traditions, we don't have religious doctrines. Texts like Vedas provide action heuristics and insights gleaned from practicing those actions much like Yoga or meditation. They don't make truth claims about the world. The thing about Vedas coming from the 'gods' or the mouth of Brahma is a story just like the puranas. The puranas don't have the status of truth claims. They are stories.
Look, you won't be able to make sense of what I'm saying or where I'm coming from unless you atleast glance at the research where my ideas come from. I sent you the link (what makes a phenomenon into a religion), but you just dismissed it as drivel without even reading it.
My whole purpose of starting this discussion thread was to engage in a discussion and get people interested in the new research that is going on in the social sciences, challenging the old paradigms; and to critically think about our common sense deeply sedimented assumptions.
not to engage in one upmanship or mudslinging.
