RE: "Knockdown" Argument Against Naturalism
January 2, 2014 at 11:50 am
(This post was last modified: January 2, 2014 at 11:55 am by Mudhammam.)
(January 2, 2014 at 11:04 am)pocaracas Wrote: Why are you repeating what you did here:I forgot that I when I had mentioned it in that other thread, it was the exact same argument. I thought this was a variatian of the point (I have had many tiring back and forths with him on this), not a verbatum repeat. It looks like it is. My apologies.
http://atheistforums.org/thread-22329-page-3.html
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(January 2, 2014 at 11:11 am)FreeTony Wrote: I'm not sure anyone believes the supernatural does definitely not exist. The burden of proof is on the person claiming the supernatural does exist. Without a complete knowledge of the laws of the universe (or possibly omniscience), one cannot determine whether something has a natural or supernatural cause. If you can't do this you have no good reason to believe in it.
Let's take an example. A supernatural being exists and every 30 seconds creates a neutron at a point in space. How could you tell that the cause is supernatural and not natural? The most we could deduce is that at point x every 30 seconds a neutron appears. We have no idea why. It could be supernatural, or it could be natural and something we do not yet understand about the laws of physics.
Every time someone has said something has a supernatural cause, it has either later been found to have a natural cause, or is still not understood. E.g. Thunder being an angry god.
ps Atheism doesnt follow from naturalism necessarily, God could be natural. Even if a God did exist, you'd have no idea whether it was supernatural or not.
He would then say, see, Naturalism is a faith because it cannot rationally justify the following (his list): 1. Nothing like God exists. 2. No miracles have ever occurred. 3. Natural processes are all that exist and account for why something exists rather than nothing (the universe), all events, our planet, life, our minds, and our beliefs. (However natural here is defined by the particular naturalist is apparently irrelevant to the argument). 4. Determinism is true and there exists no human freedom. (Beliefs are determined as well). 5. All religion is human-made. 6. Human value is subjectively determined but an objective illusion. 7. Ethics are subjectively determined but an objective illusion. 8. There is no life after death. 9. The universe has no objective purpose or meaning. 10. Every person's life has no objective purpose or meaning.
