Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 29, 2024, 3:55 am

Thread Rating:
  • 2 Vote(s) - 2.5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
#1
The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
The premises are as follows:

If there was a benevolent Creator, there would not exist unnecessary suffering or suffering that would not bring about a greater good.
There exists suffering that is unnecessary and doesn't bring about a greater good.
Therefore a benevolent Creator does not exist.


Now this argument is not stating there is no need of any suffering. For example, the existence of poverty, promotes the good intentions of charity.

But I would argue there is things like:

1) People with multiple personalities where they can't even decide whom they want to be, there personalities are out of control.
2) All sorts of mental disorders which goes against soul development (not saying all do, but some do).

I understand the argument that suffering brings character. But what is the point of a person having a multiple personalities and can hardly function? What good does it bring upon others or towards the person sufferring?

It seems whatever good can come out of it, is not necessary. For example, compassion towards the person. We can have compassion towards people in poverty sufferring, and actual be able to help them. In the case of multiple personalities, what can we do for them, but feel sorry for them?

This a significant point. The same can be said about diseases in general.

I would like to hear a defense for this.
Reply
#2
RE: The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
In my opinion,the problems of evil and suffering are incompatible with the notion of an Abrahamic/caring/powerful God.


I agree with the pithy summation attributed to Epicurus:

Quote:Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Reply
#3
RE: The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
(July 19, 2012 at 12:40 am)MysticKnight Wrote: The premises are as follows:

If there was a benevolent Creator, there would not exist unnecessary suffering or suffering that would not bring about a greater good.
There exists suffering that is unnecessary and doesn't bring about a greater good.
Therefore a benevolent Creator does not exist.


Now this argument is not stating there is no need of any suffering. For example, the existence of poverty, promotes the good intentions of charity.

But I would argue there is things like:

1) People with multiple personalities where they can't even decide whom they want to be, there personalities are out of control.
2) All sorts of mental disorders which goes against soul development (not saying all do, but some do).

I understand the argument that suffering brings character. But what is the point of a person having a multiple personalities and can hardly function? What good does it bring upon others or towards the person sufferring?

It seems whatever good can come out of it, is not necessary. For example, compassion towards the person. We can have compassion towards people in poverty sufferring, and actual be able to help them. In the case of multiple personalities, what can we do for them, but feel sorry for them?

This a significant point. The same can be said about diseases in general.

I would like to hear a defense for this.

It seems you are off to a bad start with your premises. For example, how do you determine what is "greater good" and how much suffering is necessary?
Reply
#4
RE: The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
(July 19, 2012 at 1:47 am)padraic Wrote: In my opinion,the problems of evil and suffering are incompatible with the notion of an Abrahamic/caring/powerful God.


I agree with the pithy summation attributed to Epicurus:

Quote:Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

As a former Christian, I used to say to this that Epicurus lived before the time of Jesus. God was willing to an extent to do something about it, hence why he sent Jesus. Do you think this is theologically satisfactory?
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
Reply
#5
RE: The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
(July 19, 2012 at 4:40 am)FallentoReason Wrote: As a former Christian, I used to say to this that Epicurus lived before the time of Jesus. God was willing to an extent to do something about it, hence why he sent Jesus. Do you think this is theologically satisfactory?

Nope, especially since a) he didn't send Jesus from the start and b) Jesus failed.
Reply
#6
RE: The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
Quote: God was willing to an extent to do something about it, hence why he sent Jesus.


Really.-


Quote:Do you think this is theologically satisfactory?

Theology is intellectual masturbation. RATIONALLY, the argument is nonsense:


Human society lived and suffered for thousands of years before Jesus. What took God so long? Why to this day,does this help,um not help so as I've noticed,and such a small proportion of humanity? Why does evil and suffering still exist,on a massive scale,even among the most devout and innocent?
Reply
#7
RE: The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
(July 19, 2012 at 4:59 am)padraic Wrote: Why does evil and suffering still exist,on a massive scale,even among the most devout and innocent?

Because they haven't truly accepted Jesus as their personal saviour?

Confused Fall
Sum ergo sum
Reply
#8
RE: The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
(July 19, 2012 at 4:57 am)genkaus Wrote:
(July 19, 2012 at 4:40 am)FallentoReason Wrote: As a former Christian, I used to say to this that Epicurus lived before the time of Jesus. God was willing to an extent to do something about it, hence why he sent Jesus. Do you think this is theologically satisfactory?

Nope, especially since a) he didn't send Jesus from the start
Hence why I said theologically

Quote:and b) Jesus failed.

I take it as a non-believer this is obviously your view because the Bible simply fails. Yes... I agree, but I was merely talking hypothetically/theologically. Learn to think outside the box a little Wink

(July 19, 2012 at 4:59 am)padraic Wrote:
Quote: God was willing to an extent to do something about it, hence why he sent Jesus.


Really.-


Quote:Do you think this is theologically satisfactory?

Theology is intellectual masturbation. RATIONALLY, the argument is nonsense:


Human society lived and suffered for thousands of years before Jesus. What took God so long? Why to this day,does this help,um not help so as I've noticed,and such a small proportion of humanity? Why does evil and suffering still exist,on a massive scale,even among the most devout and innocent?

They're all really good questions. I never went beyond my initial argument because my 'opponent' would get stumped after I said God sent Jesus. Mind you, these people were some non-Christian friends I had who don't have debating experience.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
Reply
#9
RE: The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
(July 19, 2012 at 7:33 am)FallentoReason Wrote: Hence why I said theologically

And how does adding that qualifier make the delay any more satisfactory?

(July 19, 2012 at 7:33 am)FallentoReason Wrote: I take it as a non-believer this is obviously your view because the Bible simply fails. Yes... I agree, but I was merely talking hypothetically/theologically. Learn to think outside the box a little Wink

I accept your hypothetical in this scenario. My point is, even by your standard, your god failed. Given the tardiness in sending Jesus to remove evil and suffering means he isn't always willing and given Jesus's failure to actually remove the evil and suffering, his ability is questionable as well.
Reply
#10
RE: The argument against "evil", theists please come to the defense.
MysticKnight, you seem to have been bringing up the argument against evil frequently in recent memory. Are you having doubts that a benevolent creator exists?
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Are cats evil beasts that should be killed to save mice? FlatAssembler 34 2328 November 28, 2022 at 11:41 am
Last Post: Fireball
  does evil exist? Quill01 51 3450 November 15, 2022 at 5:30 am
Last Post: h4ym4n
  In Defense of a Non-Natural Moral Order Acrobat 84 6904 August 30, 2019 at 3:02 pm
Last Post: LastPoet
  [Serious] An Argument Against Hedonistic Moral Realism SenseMaker007 25 2867 June 19, 2019 at 7:21 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Argument against Intelligent Design Jrouche 27 3065 June 2, 2019 at 5:04 pm
Last Post: GUBU
  The Argument Against God's Existence From God's Imperfect Choice Edwardo Piet 53 7908 June 4, 2018 at 2:06 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  The Objective Moral Values Argument AGAINST The Existence Of God Edwardo Piet 58 13613 May 2, 2018 at 2:06 pm
Last Post: Amarok
  One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window. Mystic 473 48857 November 12, 2017 at 7:57 pm
Last Post: bennyboy
  Reasoning showing homosexuality is evil. Mystic 315 45168 October 23, 2017 at 12:34 pm
Last Post: Foxaèr
  Reasoning showing that heterosexuality is evil I_am_not_mafia 21 4522 October 23, 2017 at 8:23 am
Last Post: ignoramus



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)