(January 15, 2014 at 10:20 am)Ben Davis Wrote: Has anyone else noticed that rather than explanations, the level 1 theists are offering only poetry & rhetoric?Sure.
When I've needed to explain why I don't believe, I've been able to state the specific items which lead me to my conclusions (e.g. lack of physical evidence, logical fallacies, historic inconsistencies). Further, when challenged to describe situations where I'm anti-theistic (make the positive claim of non-existence, i.e. level 7), I'm able to provide similar specifics which allow me to describe my positions and compare/contrast with the evidence which only leads me to disbelief.
What I'm hoping to see from the theists are similarly specific lists so that we can have some meaningful discussions. Any of you up to that challenge?
1) The universe is governed.
Nothing in the universe can take up the same space as anything else. Therefore it can be said that the state of every object in the universe depends on the state of every other object in it.
Now take any 2 objects in the universe. If they both depend on each other, who/what is in charge of them? It can't be either of the objects, because then one could control the other, but not the other way around. And it can't be nothing, because then they would both be independent and neither would control the other. It has to be a third being/thing. Now extend this principle to the whole universe, and there must be a someone/something controlling everything in then universe.
2) The governor is the same as the creator.
Nothing that depends on its governor can exist before or without it. Otherwise, it would not be dependent on it. Moreover, things in this universe cannot have existed forever, since cause-and-effect can only propagate forward, not infinitely backward. Therefore we had to come into existence under our governor's control, i.e. we were created by it. Finally, if the object was created by something, its creator would have made it a certain way, and therefore would be in charge of its state, making it the governor as well.
3) The mind is not a physical thing.
There is a difference between how a human thinks and how any purely physical device solves problems. A physical device, e.g. a computer, uses physical means, e.g. transistors, to store and compute information. But the motion of transistors is not knowledge. It cannot be called knowledge any more than flicking a light switch on and off can be called knowledge. With humans, it is different - we actually know and understand things. We are sentient.
4) The governor/creator must be sentient.
This is probably the simplest of my four points: Humans are among those things in the universe that depend on each other and therefore share a governor/creator. Nothing can control a power it does not have. Therefore, if this governor/creator is in charge of sentient beings, he himself must be sentient.
So now we have a sentient being who not only created everything in the universe, but also controls it. This is a god.