On the logic of nationalism

[kılıç_mehmet]

Nations are just large tribes. Or, realistically, large conglomerations of tribes absorbed into larger and more successful ones.

But those tribes too must be united by notions of ethnicity, language and culture.
My tribe is just one amongst the many tribes of the Turks.
But other than our tribal identities, we also have an ethnic identity, seperate from the tribal identity, which is the basis of our nation, our culture and our language.

What wonderfully circular logic.

No, internationalism has failed. The world is still based on nation states.

That's certainly a large example of it.

And the example that you'd like us to look up to, I guess?
There were other examples throughout the ages. Romans, Greeks.
They all have failed to establish long-lasting cultural dominance throughout the (known) world.

Which entity has taken on more characteristics of the other, Turkey or Europe?

I'd say Europe. Just look at the Balkans and you'll see the definitive signs of the Turkish conquests. Hell, we even managed to convert large portions of the Balkans to our religion, who were previously Christian like the other Europeans. They dress like us, they drink our coffee, they use our phrases, they have adopted our titles, our names, our food, our music, and etc. And the fact that we have put an end to the last remnant of the Roman empire, de-christianized the birthplaces of Christianity, and put an end to a several millenia long Hellenic presence in Anatolia, build hammams, Mosques and etc. everywhere, I'd say that we've had 1000x the impact on Europe, than the impact that the Europeans had on us.
We practically fucked over Europe so hard, that they tried to get even with the treaty of Sevres which they could not ratify, and the Britsh president of the time boasted that he would send us back to where we came from, to central Central Asia.

But still, despite our 600 years of rule, none of the people that we conquered wilingly, or even unwillingly assimilated into our consciousness, and what was left of the Ottoman empire were its founders, the Turks, who have valiantly defended the Empire that they founded, to the last.
As you see, nationalism has wrecked our empire, but it also gave rise to our republic, the last free Turkish country on earth during those times.
We learned from our past mistakes, and decided to built the county around the idea of nationalism, rather than the cosmopolitan nature of the Ottoman empire, which failed.

I'd say 'isn't that special', but you've just described almost every extant nation in the world. Turkey is just the neutered shell of the Ottoman Empire anyway. It has nothing resembling the relevance and prestige of the old Empire. Being proud of the past is symptomatic of not having much relevance in the present (to say nothing of the future).

Well, we do not wish to return to the days of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman empire, and along with it, the multitude of other Turkish empires before the Ottomans, serve as an example of what we Turks are capable of.
This is the type of reasoning that is behind the whole "looking up to the past to build a future".

Or we also know that we cannot resurrect the Ottoman empire. As a nationalist, I know why the Ottoman Empire fell, because of the nationalism of our non-Turkish subjects. So we wish to build a new empire that is based on the Turkish ethnic consciousness alone, in which we can be together with our brethren, and liberate them from the domination of the others(and frankly, we do not have anyone else to look up to for that). For when we are united we are strong, and history shows this.
Looking up to the past, to build a stronger future.
Else, if we look at Turkey today, yeah, it really isn't much, but should that mean that we shouldn't aspire to the greatness of the old?

You have been and you will continue to. Your cultural pride is based on the deeds and accomplishments of men who are all long dead and your nation is third-rate.

Well, the fact that they're dead, does not mean that their legacy is dead.
The fact that we exist here today is due to Sultan Alp Arslan. He is long dead, but we're still here, which means, his legacy still lives.
If he had thought as you did, he would not have bothered coming here, as he inherited his martial pride and lust for conquest from his ancestors, and he came here to open up new lands for us to conquer and colonize.
Our nation is first-rate, as on par with our accomplishments.

It will work for you, for now. Enjoy it. Nationalism is only an effective tool for nations that actually have weight to throw around, and even for them, it won't last forever. And I'm speaking as a citizen of the United States, which is certainly the most successful national entity in modern times. Our nationalists are just as much in denial as yours.

For now? In truth, I don't see anything else that could work for us or anyone else.
Besides, I don't even consider the "American" identity as a national identity.
It lacks the basic characteristics of a nation. What they do have is a lot of "citizens" though, citizens loyal to coin only.

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.

-Albert Einstein

Said the man who built the atom bomb.

By the way, I yet have to see any of you coming up with a definite anti-thesis of how nationalism is irrelevant, or what could be a better alternative to it.