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On the logic of nationalism
#31
RE: On the logic of nationalism
(January 28, 2014 at 10:26 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: But those tribes too must be united by notions of ethnicity, language and culture.
My tribe is just one amongst the many tribes of the Turks.
But other than our tribal identities, we also have an ethnic identity, seperate from the tribal identity, which is the basis of our nation, our culture and our language.

Oh?

Quote:No, internationalism has failed. The world is still based on nation states.

Internationalism has only just begun.

Quote:And the example that you'd like us to look up to, I guess?
There were other examples throughout the ages. Romans, Greeks.
They all have failed to establish long-lasting cultural dominance throughout the (known) world.

Couldn't care less what you look up to.

That's just the point, though. No culture remains the same long enough to become singularly dominant. However, elements of their cultures still pervade. Last I checked, the Romans invented the republican form of government your country uses.

Quote:I'd say Europe. Just look at the Balkans and you'll see the definitive signs of the Turkish conquests. Hell, we even managed to convert large portions of the Balkans to our religion, who were previously Christian like the other Europeans. They dress like us, they drink our coffee, they use our phrases, they have adopted our titles, our names, our food, our music, and etc. And the fact that we have put an end to the last remnant of the Roman empire, de-christianized the birthplaces of Christianity, and put an end to a several millenia long Hellenic presence in Anatolia, build hammams, Mosques and etc. everywhere, I'd say that we've had 1000x the impact on Europe, than the impact that the Europeans had on us.
We practically fucked over Europe so hard, that they tried to get even with the treaty of Sevres which they could not ratify, and the Britsh president of the time boasted that he would send us back to where we came from, to central Central Asia.

And while the majority of Europe shows no significant signs of Turkish cultural influence, people in your country use a European-derived system of government, many dress in European-styled clothing, host to hundreds of European companies in modern buildings styled after those of Europe, and Europe hasn't been trying for years to get into the Turkish Union.

Quote:Well, we do not wish to return to the days of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman empire, and along with it, the multitude of other Turkish empires before the Ottomans, serve as an example of what we Turks are capable of.
This is the type of reasoning that is behind the whole "looking up to the past to build a future".

A prospect which has worked out in the long run a total of zero times. Your old fascist buddies in Italy and Germany had the same idea. But good luck anyway.

Quote:Or we also know that we cannot resurrect the Ottoman empire. As a nationalist, I know why the Ottoman Empire fell, because of the nationalism of our non-Turkish subjects. So we wish to build a new empire that is based on the Turkish ethnic consciousness alone, in which we can be together with our brethren, and liberate them from the domination of the others(and frankly, we do not have anyone else to look up to for that). For when we are united we are strong, and history shows this.
Looking up to the past, to build a stronger future.
Else, if we look at Turkey today, yeah, it really isn't much, but should that mean that we shouldn't aspire to the greatness of the old?

The greatness of the old is dead. Successful nations aspire to build their own, new greatness. They don't prop up their grandfather's corpses on a dusty old throne.

Quote:Well, the fact that they're dead, does not mean that their legacy is dead.
The fact that we exist here today is due to Sultan Alp Arslan. He is long dead, but we're still here, which means, his legacy still lives.
If he had thought as you did, he would not have bothered coming here, as he inherited his martial pride and lust for conquest from his ancestors, and he came here to open up new lands for us to conquer and colonize.
Our nation is first-rate, as on par with our accomplishments.

I guess in that corner of the world it rates as something resembling impressive. And in a hundred years, it will either not exist anymore or be unrecognizable to anyone alive today.

Quote:For now? In truth, I don't see anything else that could work for us or anyone else.
Besides, I don't even consider the "American" identity as a national identity.
It lacks the basic characteristics of a nation. What they do have is a lot of "citizens" though, citizens loyal to coin only.

Which, as the saying goes, talks and the bullshit walks.
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Messages In This Thread
On the logic of nationalism - by kılıç_mehmet - January 28, 2014 at 6:49 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by paintpooper - January 28, 2014 at 6:54 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by kılıç_mehmet - January 28, 2014 at 7:01 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by Cato - January 28, 2014 at 6:57 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by EgoRaptor - January 28, 2014 at 7:02 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by kılıç_mehmet - January 28, 2014 at 7:07 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by EgoRaptor - January 28, 2014 at 7:08 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by paintpooper - January 28, 2014 at 7:10 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by kılıç_mehmet - January 28, 2014 at 7:06 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by TAW - January 29, 2014 at 5:28 am
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by EgoRaptor - January 28, 2014 at 7:07 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by kılıç_mehmet - January 28, 2014 at 7:11 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by EgoRaptor - January 28, 2014 at 7:41 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by paintpooper - January 28, 2014 at 8:35 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by EgoRaptor - January 28, 2014 at 8:50 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by Cato - January 28, 2014 at 7:30 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by paintpooper - January 28, 2014 at 7:40 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by Cato - January 28, 2014 at 8:41 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by paintpooper - January 28, 2014 at 8:44 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by kılıç_mehmet - January 28, 2014 at 8:50 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by Ryantology - January 28, 2014 at 8:50 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by kılıç_mehmet - January 28, 2014 at 8:30 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by Anomalocaris - January 28, 2014 at 8:40 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by Cato - January 28, 2014 at 8:56 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by kılıç_mehmet - January 28, 2014 at 9:42 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by kılıç_mehmet - January 28, 2014 at 9:20 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by EgoRaptor - January 28, 2014 at 9:24 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by Ryantology - January 28, 2014 at 9:30 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by ThePinsir - January 28, 2014 at 9:43 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by EgoRaptor - January 28, 2014 at 9:46 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by kılıç_mehmet - January 28, 2014 at 10:26 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by Ryantology - January 29, 2014 at 2:03 am
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by Assimilate - January 29, 2014 at 11:37 am
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by Whateverist - January 29, 2014 at 11:55 am
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by kılıç_mehmet - January 29, 2014 at 12:24 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by TAW - January 29, 2014 at 2:51 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by paintpooper - January 29, 2014 at 2:55 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by TAW - January 29, 2014 at 3:02 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by Assimilate - January 29, 2014 at 12:50 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by kılıç_mehmet - January 29, 2014 at 1:43 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by Assimilate - January 29, 2014 at 1:54 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by kılıç_mehmet - January 29, 2014 at 2:10 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by downbeatplumb - January 29, 2014 at 1:58 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by downbeatplumb - January 29, 2014 at 1:40 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by paintpooper - January 29, 2014 at 2:45 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by kılıç_mehmet - January 29, 2014 at 3:28 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by TAW - January 29, 2014 at 3:41 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by paintpooper - January 29, 2014 at 3:47 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by TAW - January 29, 2014 at 3:52 pm
RE: On the logic of nationalism - by kılıç_mehmet - January 29, 2014 at 5:53 pm

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