Order vs. Randomness

[Alex K]

@Rayaan,

I would like to think about it longer, but your post did not contain enough meat for me to think about it. I would be glad if that changed.

Postulating an intelligent designer to explain "order in the universe" necessitates a further explanation why there is an intelligence to start with - you have gained nothing but introduced an gigantic unnecessary complication!

So, your statement that an intelligent designer necessitates a "further explanation" means that you believe that, ultimately, there has to be a simpler relationship/order/pattern behind the intelligent designer (and everything else in reality) which can be described as "non-intelligent," which I think is paradoxically self-defeating since even the notion of order itself is an aspect of intelligence.

*You* are willing to postulate an intelligent designer, and somehow this is supposed to be more justified than simply postulating a universe with a certain set of simple laws?

Your litany that "order is an aspect of intelligence" is so weasely and vague. Intelligence as we know it needs a certain amount of order as prerequisite, but not the other way around! Intelligence is what a neural network does. You simply don't have a good reason to think that intelligence is a more fundamental aspect of nature than that.

. Order and intelligence are so much in correspondence that, in opinion, they can't even exist without each other.

No they aren't *in correspondence*

And they would have to exist as fundamental aspects of reality itself (which, altogether, I regard as an intelligent designer) for any kind of self-organizing intelligent system to be able to emerge in the first place.

It what sense and why?

Now, you might say that this intelligent designer would have to be infinitely more complex than the kind of answers that science is looking for.

Not infinitely more complex. Much more complex, yes. And entirely 1) unevidenced and 2) unnecessary

But I think that the amount of complexity that exists right now (and will ever exist) was something that was already present eternally;

You can think all you want. Can you give me any reason why I should think so, too? I would like to know it! Start with a sensible definition of what you mean by complexity.

it was just out there in a more simplified state until manifesting itself (i.e. after the Big Bang).

Where and in what sense, and why do you think so?

I mean, whatever or whoever created the universe, it's not unreasonable to think that it can be just as complex as the total complexity in the universe because it already contains within itself all the information necessary for generating the amount of complexity and self-organization that will ever come about as a result of its operation.
Take some time to think about it.

How do you define complexity, and in what sense is there a conservation law for it? There is one thing that comes near what you are saying and is well-defined, namely thermodynamical quantities such as entropy. The reason why we have structure and intelligence in the universe is that it started in a low entropy state. Why this would have anything to do with the presence of an intelligence is beyond me, but I am open to explanations, but please be more specific than "they are linked together" or so.