RE: What deism has done for the world
March 2, 2014 at 5:10 pm
(This post was last modified: March 2, 2014 at 5:34 pm by Cinjin.)
(March 2, 2014 at 7:49 am)discipulus Wrote: But instead of some cartoonish video, I reply with simply hard facts and statistics for you all to engage with that show that the majority of the the members of the Constitutional Convention were Christians. Not Deists.
You're going to ad-hom a video? Name-calling a video that you don't agree with is pathetic and just because christians outnumbered Deists doesn't change the fact that the Constitution IS deistic. The video didn't lie about the language used in the Constitution. It is not Christian. This is a fact you didn't even bother to address.
Quote:The phrase "Founding Fathers" is a proper noun. It refers to a specific group of men, the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention. There were other important players not in attendance, like Jefferson, whose thinking deeply influenced the shaping of our nation. These 55 Founding Fathers, though, made up the core.
The denominational affiliations of these men were a matter of public record. Among the delegates were 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 unknown, and only 3 deists--Williamson, Wilson, and Franklin--this at a time when church membership entailed a sworn public confession of biblical faith. [John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987), p. 43.]
This is a revealing tally. It shows that the members of the Constitutional Convention, the most influential group of men shaping the political foundations of our nation, were almost all Christians, 51 of 55--a full 93%. Indeed, 70% were Calvinists (the Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and the Dutch Reformed).
Again - so what? Not much of a shocker: Christians outnumber deists. Thanks Captain Obvious.
Oh and this business of counting 55 of the Founding Fathers is only a cherry-picked technicality. It's a well-known fact that there are SEVEN primary figures identified as the Founding Fathers. The only reason you include the other 48 men is to minimize the percent of deists directly involved with the creation of the constitution. Basically, you're using a useless historical statistic to make some point you don't actually have.
Then we can also add another little problem for your argument: You yourself have admitted that so-called Christians aren't really True Christians. Therefore, since the Constitution was CLEARLY written free of any Christian dogma, I'd say it's pretty easy to make the argument that there were damn few Christian founding fathers. What? You're free to claim the No True Scotsman argument whenever the hell you please, but I can't? Here's yet another consideration: Everyone knows that it's nearly impossible to get a Catholic and a Fundamentalist to agree on anything, let alone when the entire room is filled with multiple denominations that likely wouldn't even come CLOSE to seeing eye to eye - which brings me to my next point ....
Quote:And what of our friend ole Ben Franklin.....:
Though not an orthodox Christian, it was 81-year-old Franklin's emotional call to humble prayer on June 28, 1787, that was the turning point for a hopelessly stalled Convention. James Madison recorded the event in his collection of notes and debates from the Federal Convention. Franklin's appeal contained no less than four direct references to Scripture.
Well of course he prayed. It's called placating. Benjaming Franklin was surrounded by a group of self-righteous, self-interested Christians. A group that has notoriously never gotten along with each other and would rather spend the rest of time arguing about pointless shit than just solve the problem and get the job done. Franklin manipulated a bunch of sheep by praying to THEIR god. Why? It seems very likely that he was trying to get something done and this group of christards just needed to be put back on track. You should be thanking Ben Franklin for being there to redirect the stupids back to the job at hand.
Quote:However...
The Fathers sought to set up a just society, not a Christian theocracy.
They specifically prohibited the establishment of Christianity--or any other faith--as the religion of our nation. http://www.str.org/articles/the-faith-of...xMU1flSiSo
With regards to the separation of Chruch and State, I heartily agree that that is the way it should be!!!
And lets not forget the sentiment that YOU just shared above: Christianity should NOT be the religion of this nation - as it never was.