God's self esteem and the human free will : NO FORCED CONVERSION WITH THE SWORD

[WinterHold]

Apologies in advance, but, you're full of convoluted dogmatic shit, you know that?
You assert god is "the" pillar of self-sufficiency. Perfection. Needs or wants nothing from us, then follow up that claim, with the big ol' stinky turd assertion that "god requires worship".

No. No one requires worship or devotion.

You know that sky tyrant needs angels constantly singing his praises in heaven right? If that isn't insecurity and an inferiority-superiority-complex, then I don't know what is.

It's how you look at these prayers & chantings & worship. You see them as a humiliating process while I see it as true acknowledgement.

You live in god's universe, and it's a fun place. People do wanna live, they don't want to just die ; everybody enjoys life one way or another.

Now, worshiping god is mainly aimed at breaking your ego into peaces so you don't burn others. Neither by words or by even emotions or physical actions.
Worshiping god makes you respect the universe and everything that dwells within it.

It's also a true acknowledgment that god is amazing in every aspect for creating this universe. He deserves to be chanted for like that, without him saying a word in the first place. God created this universe ; the universe is amazing enough for us to worship god.
What I mean is : when I see a cherry tree blossoming in read I would totally chant for it's original creator who made it out of nothing. If I didn't, then I didn't measure things right, then I know nothing about being "thankful".

That's where the phrase "Kafer" came from : )

Hey, where you got people, you got problems. Evil is a naturalistic consequence. Something an all-powerful deity who created reality should be able to appreciate and not get angry over. Its unavoidable.

And if he is still angry, its because all blame and credit for creating a reality where evil is possible comes back to him.

Humans have needs, they are somehow weak. The evil you see is triggered by Satan, he used the human weakness ; it's not naturalistic.

That's why in the after life everybody's eyes would be opened to the fact mentioned in this verse :

( 22 ) And Satan will say when the matter has been concluded, "Indeed, Allah had promised you the promise of truth. And I promised you, but I betrayed you. But I had no authority over you except that I invited you, and you responded to me. So do not blame me; but blame yourselves. I cannot be called to your aid, nor can you be called to my aid. Indeed, I deny your association of me [with Allah] before. Indeed, for the wrongdoers is a painful punishment." Page 258, Quran.

So it's not mainly a human evil self rather than Satan calling out humanity to do all kind of evil things.

Satan knows it better than us. There was satan's evil message & god's good message. It's up to your brain to choose which one to follow & build upon.
This is how I see good and evil.

What would god appreciate ? a group of brainwashed fellas following a racist figure who wants to see them burn in hell ? asking them to bite the hand that fed them and created them ?
asking them to bite their fellow humans, wage wars upon one another ?
That's satan party, sorry bro but how would god appreciate such thing ?

pocaracas

He knows that people will probably judge prophets as mad.

( 7 ) And they say, "What is this messenger that eats food and walks in the markets? Why was there not sent down to him an angel so he would be with him a warner?
( 8 ) Or [why is not] a treasure presented to him [from heaven], or does he [not] have a garden from which he eats?" And the wrongdoers say, "You follow not but a man affected by magic." Page 360, Quran.

The whole deal is that I mentioned before : life is a test. Is what you have mentioned, pocaracas, derived from logical thinking or from inner ego ? I say it's your ego.

Just like the Church when it burned people who said earth is round. It's the inner human ego that says "who are these worthless scum to come tell us what to do or believe in ? they're human just like us ! LIARS ! ".

( 24 ) And said, "Is it one human being among us that we should follow? Indeed, we would then be in error and madness.
( 25 ) Has the message been sent down upon him from among us? Rather, he is an insolent liar." Page 529, the Quran.

About the geographical locations, Islam was always meant to be an international message ; to all humans.

Even the extremists of extremists believe that if somebody didn't read about islam or got the message in the wrong fashion, god will judge him, nobody can say either he/she would go to hell !

God is fair. He's not like our governments & human judges.

Ryantology



paulpablo

The verses simply mean : roasting in hell is not just for "not believing in god".
If you do good deeds, then you do believe in some parts of Islam, then you do walk the path of god partially.

You don't understand that the punishment of hell is assured mainly for the baddest of bad, notice that even "believers" go to hell -i.e Satan-.

And then, what are these verses you speak about ? these roasting verses are for the evil ones -who also contain believers in god who committed atrocities-, but I see this verse shining :

( 117 ) And whoever invokes besides Allah another deity for which he has no proof - then his account is only with his Lord. Indeed, the disbelievers will not succeed. Page 349, the Quran.

and yet, the main point of my topic still stands : with time, your non believing in god will lead you astray from any good deed you've done. But Hell & heaven ; that's god judgement not mine.

Self esteem is a concept used in the study of human psychology also and yet you're applying that to a god.

The rest of what you wrote simply can't be proven, you don't know that god can't have a false sense of superiority , someone who creates people and then tells them their lives must be dedicated to praising him, then writes a book detailing how amazing he is, then tells people if they don't believe the book he will burn them repeatedly seems to be a little arrogant to me, just a little.

You sure you read the quran ? it's not always about god
besides, let's change self esteem to "god's independence from needs".

If people don't believe in the book, then they don't believe in the right path. Then they will burn their own world with atomic weapons and world wars..

Rhythm

If you mean the hellish punishment, yeah it's god's business not mine. All I can say is that non believing in Islam will put you right on the track of hell.

For the hell you have caused to others.

You know, build your world not on the humility of worshiping one god which we are all equal under him, but to worship your country and create an interest driven political system, that doesn't care about nothing but economy even if the price was causing poverty & civil wars to other countries.

And whoever disobeys, will burn in earthly inferno, human made, rained by jet fighters & heavy bombers.

Apologies in advance, but, you're full of convoluted dogmatic shit, you know that?
You assert god is "the" pillar of self-sufficiency. Perfection. Needs or wants nothing from us, then follow up that claim, with the big ol' stinky turd assertion that "god requires worship".

No. No one requires worship or devotion.

You know that sky tyrant needs angels constantly singing his praises in heaven right? If that isn't insecurity and an inferiority-superiority-complex, then I don't know what is.

It's how you look at these prayers & chantings & worship. You see them as a humiliating process while I see it as true acknowledgement.

You live in god's universe, and it's a fun place. People do wanna live, they don't want to just die ; everybody enjoys life one way or another.

Now, worshiping god is mainly aimed at breaking your ego into peaces so you don't burn others. Neither by words or by even emotions or physical actions.
Worshiping god makes you respect the universe and everything that dwells within it.

It's also a true acknowledgment that god is amazing in every aspect for creating this universe. He deserves to be chanted for like that, without him saying a word in the first place. God created this universe ; the universe is amazing enough for us to worship god.
What I mean is : when I see a cherry tree blossoming in read I would totally chant for it's original creator who made it out of nothing. If I didn't, then I didn't measure things right, then I know nothing about being "thankful".

That's where the phrase "Kafer" came from : )

Hey, where you got people, you got problems. Evil is a naturalistic consequence. Something an all-powerful deity who created reality should be able to appreciate and not get angry over. Its unavoidable.

And if he is still angry, its because all blame and credit for creating a reality where evil is possible comes back to him.

Humans have needs, they are somehow weak. The evil you see is triggered by Satan, he used the human weakness ; it's not naturalistic.

That's why in the after life everybody's eyes would be opened to the fact mentioned in this verse :

( 22 ) And Satan will say when the matter has been concluded, "Indeed, Allah had promised you the promise of truth. And I promised you, but I betrayed you. But I had no authority over you except that I invited you, and you responded to me. So do not blame me; but blame yourselves. I cannot be called to your aid, nor can you be called to my aid. Indeed, I deny your association of me [with Allah] before. Indeed, for the wrongdoers is a painful punishment." Page 258, Quran.

So it's not mainly a human evil self rather than Satan calling out humanity to do all kind of evil things.

Satan knows it better than us. There was satan's evil message & god's good message. It's up to your brain to choose which one to follow & build upon.
This is how I see good and evil.

What would god appreciate ? a group of brainwashed fellas following a racist figure who wants to see them burn in hell ? asking them to bite the hand that fed them and created them ?
asking them to bite their fellow humans, wage wars upon one another ?
That's satan party, sorry bro but how would god appreciate such thing ?

pocaracas

He knows that people will probably judge prophets as mad.

( 7 ) And they say, "What is this messenger that eats food and walks in the markets? Why was there not sent down to him an angel so he would be with him a warner?
( 8 ) Or [why is not] a treasure presented to him [from heaven], or does he [not] have a garden from which he eats?" And the wrongdoers say, "You follow not but a man affected by magic." Page 360, Quran.

The whole deal is that I mentioned before : life is a test. Is what you have mentioned, pocaracas, derived from logical thinking or from inner ego ? I say it's your ego.

Just like the Church when it burned people who said earth is round. It's the inner human ego that says "who are these worthless scum to come tell us what to do or believe in ? they're human just like us ! LIARS ! ".

( 24 ) And said, "Is it one human being among us that we should follow? Indeed, we would then be in error and madness.
( 25 ) Has the message been sent down upon him from among us? Rather, he is an insolent liar." Page 529, the Quran.

About the geographical locations, Islam was always meant to be an international message ; to all humans.

Even the extremists of extremists believe that if somebody didn't read about islam or got the message in the wrong fashion, god will judge him, nobody can say either he/she would go to hell !

God is fair. He's not like our governments & human judges.

Ryantology

Dude please elaborate :/

paulpablo

The verses simply mean : roasting in hell is not just for "not believing in god".
If you do good deeds, then you do believe in some parts of Islam, then you do walk the path of god partially.

You don't understand that the punishment of hell is assured mainly for the baddest of bad, notice that even "believers" go to hell -i.e Satan-.

And then, what are these verses you speak about ? these roasting verses are for the evil ones -who also contain believers in god who committed atrocities-, but I see this verse shining :

( 117 ) And whoever invokes besides Allah another deity for which he has no proof - then his account is only with his Lord. Indeed, the disbelievers will not succeed. Page 349, the Quran.

and yet, the main point of my topic still stands : with time, your non believing in god will lead you astray from any good deed you've done. But Hell & heaven ; that's god judgement not mine.

Self esteem is a concept used in the study of human psychology also and yet you're applying that to a god.

The rest of what you wrote simply can't be proven, you don't know that god can't have a false sense of superiority , someone who creates people and then tells them their lives must be dedicated to praising him, then writes a book detailing how amazing he is, then tells people if they don't believe the book he will burn them repeatedly seems to be a little arrogant to me, just a little.

You sure you read the quran ? it's not always about god
besides, let's change self esteem to "god's independence from needs".

If people don't believe in the book, then they don't believe in the right path. Then they will burn their own world with atomic weapons and world wars..

Rhythm

If you mean the hellish punishment, yeah it's god's business not mine. All I can say is that non believing in Islam will put you right on the track of hell.

For the hell you have caused to others.

You know, build your world not on the humility of worshiping one god which we are all equal under him, but to worship your country and create an interest driven political system, that doesn't care about nothing but economy even if the price was causing poverty & civil wars to other countries.

And whoever disobeys, will burn in earthly inferno, human made, rained by jet fighters & heavy bombers.

MysticKnight


Couldn't agree more, mysticKnight, the verse you have posted is a bigger evidence that god is just, and that he'll repay those who did good no matter who they are.
Thank you very much for revealing that verse.

Losty

Because of the blessing of free will.

Rhythm

Armageddon is something totally different than "apocalypse". Apocalypse is coming, and the day earth ends is indeed coming, but it will mainly be caused because of the sins of humans.
Armageddon on the other hand is a trigger we humans have our fingers one -Superpowers and their "atomic submarines & missiles"-.

I always thought apocalypse would come after "a huge sin" is committed. Like a nuclear holocaust.

Chad32

It's not gangs of new york.
Cause pain to others and you will get punished ; plain and simple.
Unless you justify that ?

paulpablo

MysticKnight might have a better response. But mine is the following :

First of all, until the day you die, nobody can judge you. So, you misunderstood the verse of "shirk" ; it speaks about meeting god in judgement day as a "heathen", who knew Islam & kept living on as a heathen and died as a heathen.. No contradictions here.

Then, I already mentioned in this same comment that hell isn't just for "non believers", the quran is straight about that and satan's story is the biggest example ! HE BELIEVES IN GOD ! but that didn't do him any good you see.

So, if you thought the matter is only about believe, then you're no difference than ISIS and Al-Qaeda, who thought that saying "allahu akbar !" will free them from the sins of chopping the heads of hundreds.

Islam is faith followed by work, not just faith.

Your faith is worthless without good deeds.

And those good deeds paulpablo, are mainly aimed towards fellow humans, with only a small fraction aimed at god.

we pray 5 times a day, I personally pray alone, the prayer doesn't last more than 5 minutes or so and that's it..

While on the other hand, i have to stay away from negative thinking 24/7, I have to reject any idea including the abuse of others, and many many many other "islamic orders" that are aimed at society and humans, NOT GOD !

I don't see any contradictions.. All I can see is two types of people in hell:

1) Those who didn't believe and did all the wrong stuff in the world.
2) Those who believed and also did all the wrong stuff in the world.

A merciful god that will forgive your sins at any point while you're alive.
But he's also a just judge that will not accept anymore from you after your hour has came.