Moral standards

[Mister Agenda]

In an atheist world, where do the standards by which moral actions are measured come from?

If by 'an atheist world', you mean a world without God, you should consider that all cultures actually DO have moral standards, whether they believe in your version of God (or any), so at least it shouldn't be in question that an atheist world would have them.

If you mean 'a world where most people are atheists', just like this world where most people are theists, different cultures with have different moral standards that only converge on a few key points, like murder being bad.

There's a pretty extensive body of work on moral philosophy that applies here, as well as instinctual moral sentiments such as our senses of fairness and reciprocity that are detectable in our behavior before we can walk.

We can (and do) derive our moral standards from those standards in combination with reason and experience. There are actually ways to behave that make a society safer and more beneficial to participate in. Those of us with normal moral sentiments and reasoning are happy to abide by those norms; and those of us who don't have them are the reason we have laws, police, courts, and prisons.

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Maximum benefit?

Morality is based on the largest amount of gain? Such as killing one man to save a thousand?

I'm not sure someone who would let a thousand people die to save one man has the moral high ground.

What about killing one baby to save two elderly yet healthy people?

Are you claiming that ethical dilemmas can't arise in your moral system?

I think I am a bit leery of the the idea of "benefit" in morality.

If you think 'imaginary scenarios that never happen in real life' are applicabel to real-world morality, I'm surprised you're not leery of ALL moral ideas, because they ALL fail to cover every imaginable situation.

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If history had ended up differently and we all lived in a Nazi society, would that be moral society?

If by moral society you mean 'a morally good society', no. All societies have morals, but some have better morals than others. Nazi society is still where most of the people immersed in it would get their morals, which would still include things like not stealing or murdering, but also include things like turning your neighbors over to the Gestapo if they turn out to be Jews. If we take the scenario literally, there would be an underground moral resistance composed of those who never bought into Naziism and those who escaped the mental trap of the philosophy. Given Nazi oppression of atheists (Hitler boasted of having wiped out the atheist movement in Germany), you'd find atheists in that resistance.

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Aunty Entity generally has us fight it out in the Thunderdome.

Honestly, when are your lot going to come up with an original question? This question has been answered about 10 000 times just on this forum. A quick perusal of atheist literature would have provided you with our position on morality and moral authority.

Boru

If it has been answered so many times I would think that the simple question would have a well rehearsed and simple answer.

Because simple questions never have complicated answers? Really?

Is it wrong to torture someone for fun?

Yep. If my answer is different from Alice's, it might be to do with the fact two people giving the same answer to a moral question has as much to do with them both being atheists as it does with them both being theists. It's an opinion on a single topic, and that opinion (either way) is separate from morality. Do you have the same morality as a Kali worshiper because you're both theists?

We're diverse, although on this particular mostly Western forum, we tend to be, when it comes to moral stance, humanists.

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Just think of all the scumbag Christian television personalities who have used money needed by old people barely getting by to buy gold plated bathroom fixtures. Or the ones who keep getting caught abusing drugs or having affairs with people in their own 'flock' or paying for a homosexual prostitute. God's commandments don't seem so very hard to disregard even for those who profess to embrace them as true believers. I wouldn't lose any sleep worrying about what atheists may do without this ineffectual device of yours.

You name acts done by Christians and seem to be labeling them as wrong, would it be different if an atheist was doing these things?

Or is the problem that Christians say things are wrong and then do them?

Conning old people out of their savings so you can have luxuries seems to be wrong no matter how you cut it. The others are arguable, but breaking moral standards you claim to support adds a level of wrong to the act, even if the moral standard itself is questionable.

Although you didn't address the point at all. Why should we adopt a system of morality based on divine command when the people who aim to follow it are famous for failing to do so?

My moral behavior improved greatly when I understood the practical and logical and emotional reasons why I should behave well: the harm that, say, shoplifting a piece of merchandise does to my community; the joy of helping people less fortunate.

The question isn't why life is preferable to death, but why the value on conscious entities, as you put it. Where does that value come from, because you seem to throw it in without much basis.

One of the things that bothers me about some Christians is how they seem to forget their humanity. For some reason, little things like the love they naturally feel for their family and friends and their desire for them not to be subjected to violence slips their minds as they idly wonder why anyone would value other conscious beings.

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They organize little cannibal hunting trips (even the females enjoy the sport...which is rare for chimps, or so we think thusfar)- but we don't have to call that fighting, I suppose.

I thought there was only one known case of Bonobo cannibalism, and no sign they killed the dead Bonobo they ate.

Chimps are known to hunt monkeys, and with the Bonobo added to the list, there are no great apes among which cannabilism is unknown.