determinism versus indeterminism

[Edwardo Piet]

Come on, that's not critical thinking, challenge yourself.

I don't think its really critical thinking if I criticise something just for the sake of it. I don't know what to criticise? Dennett is using a different definition of free will. He just means evitability if I have understood him correctly. Whether we have a choice in that evitability, or not.

Known by who? Do we need to have knowledge about existence of an all-knowing agent first?

Well we can't absolutely know whats going to happen at all can we? We can only make predictions. And how can we predict what we are going to do before we have done it? If we are going to do something no matter what and we have no choice in the matter whatsoever. How do we know what that thing we are going to HAVE to do IS? I'm talking about IF we don't know. If no one can KNOW what our next action will be for sure - then yes there is obviously going to be a future. But since we don't know what it is. We can still of course avoid things. Whether we have any choice in the matter or not. Because we don't know what we are going to do. We might think we are going to do one thing and then change our mind. Whether we did the changing on purpose or not. Even if we had no choice in the matter we still didn't know what we were going to do.

We can still avoid things even if we don't have a choice in the matter. Maybe not free to choose but its not like we're powerless in the sense we still have all the freedom that we've always had since we were born. I mean whether I believe in free will or not I'm still just as free. Whether thats free or not. I can still do things and 'make decisions' even if I have no choice in the matter.

If your body lies itself on the floor you can do nothing about it.

Yes. But I might get up might I?

All I mean is whether I believe in free will or not it doesn't make me any more or less free. if my body lies on the floor and I don't believe in free will I can get up. If I do believe in free will I can get up.

If I'm lying down it doesn't mean I can't get up.

If I don't believe in free will I'm just as free as if I do. So If I'm lying on the floor I can get up just as easily if I don't believe I have free will as I can if I do believe I have free will. Because there is evitability whether I have free will or not.

Even if there is no 'free will', no 'free' evitability - there is still evitability. Because we avoid stuff, right? We may have had 100% to avoid it. But we still avoided it.

Even if I HAD to dodge something. IF I didn't, hypothetically speaking I may have got hit by it - because I didn't move out of the way.

So if I HAVE to avoid something. I still avoided it whether I did it or not. Its not like I have to stand still. It I DO have to stand still I do.

But if I don't believe I have to then I won't do it. If I do believe I have to. that isn't determinism. Because evitability is still there. If I didn't believe I had to then I wouldn't have to do that.

What I mean is: If the future is determined that doesn't mean nothing can be avoided. Because you don't know whats going to happen. Determinism of course, doesn't mean you HAVE to believe that you are powerless, you have no freedom. No free will or whatever.

Because there is evitability anyway. There is avoidability. THE future isn't avoidable, but A hypothetical future is avoidable because we don't know which future is going to happen because we don't know for sure which future WILL happen. I think? What do you think?

You think you are free, but how do you know it?

I don't. Did I ever claim I knew?

I just mean that if I believe I am free it doesn't make me any more free. And if I don't believe I am free it doesn't make me any less free.

Whether I am free or not.

Yeah as a robot who thinks he has free will.

I believe I am a biological robot. I don't know whether I have any choice to do things or not.

If my future is determined - I don't know what that future is anyway. So I may be able to avoid things whether I have any choice in the matter or not.

If someone rolls a ball at me very slowly I can move out of the way of it quite easily - whether I have any choice in the matter or not. Whether I move or not. I still can. If I don't believe in free will that doesn't give me any less freedom. I can still move out of the way. So there is still evitability whether I have a choice in avoiding (or not avoiding) the ball - or not.

Most people, me included, find that very disturbing. Wouldn't you like to know if you are something other than a robot?

I don't find it disturbing. Because if humans don't have free will guess what - they never have! What's changed? Nothing.

If I can't choose to avoid something that doesn't mean I can't avoid something. There is still evitability. Whether I have a choice in the matter or not I still have exactly the same power (or lack of power) as I always have.

If I don't believe in free will and I'm not sure I do because you seem to think I believe in 'free will' but I am using a different definition. I just mean evitability. I think our future is determined because of course, guess what - the future will happen! Whatever the future is: it WILL happen. Does that mean I can't dodge balls rolled at me very slowly, to give a very obvious example of the absurd idea that not believing in free will means you have less freedom? LOL, NO. I have just as much evitability as I ever have whether I have any choice in the matter - or not.

Sounds like you believing in free will no matter what facts might tell you. That's a belief for sure.

I believe I have free will as in evitability. Not really as in 'free will'. Different definition. The future will happen. If I have no choice in dodging a ball rolled at me very slowly, or not - that doesn't mean I can't! I can just as easily as before whether I believe in free will or not! There is still just as much evitability whether I have any choice in dodging the ball or not! If I wanted to dodge it I'm pretty sure I could lol. Whether I had any choice in wanting to dodge it and then dodge it or not!

I'm just as free without free will as with 'free will'. I'm still responsible for my actions without 'free will'. Heck if I shouldn't take responsibility who the hell should? There is still free will as in evitability. We have as much 'free will' as those who believe in 'free will' even if it isn't free will. Whether we believe in 'free will' or not.

We still have freedom as in evitability. I can still 'dodge' (lol) a very slowly moving ball rolled at me whether I have any choice in the matter or not.
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