Detecting design or intent in nature

[Jenny A]

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I rather like that. But much as I enjoy Matt Dillahunty, I think it fails on premise number four. Many design processes create either prototypes, or waste either by accident or as a necessary part of the process. Even human directed evolution often results in failed or intermediary progeny which are then killed or not allowed to breed. So I can certainly imagine that extinction could have a purpose. It could be the destruction an intermediary step, destruction of a prototype, or a necessary waste product.

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Jenny, thanks for your reply. I want to clear something up. That was my own argument not Dillahunty's.

Good to know.

Now let's be clear here. I'm not suggesting nature is actually designed. I just don't think that you have come up with proof that it isn't.

Extinction is akin to ceasing the production of product. A prototype results in a viable product that gets taken to market. Nothing come out of extinction because of it's finality. You cannot tell me the extinction of dodos served a purpose for dodos. They are all dead.

Of course the extinction of the dodo didn't do the dodo any good. But that doesn't mean the dodo wasn't designed.

Not all prototypes lead to final products. And sometimes, you try an thing and it doesn't work, so you stop production. Sometimes, a perfectly useful thing is superseded by a better thing or even just something we prefer. We currently prefer CD's and MP3s to 8 Tracks. That doesn't do the 8 Tracks any good, but it doesn't mean we didn't design them.

We do breed dogs, cats, sheep, pigs and other domestic animals on purpose. We "design" them. We do the same with plants both decorative and edible. And sometimes we stop breeding a particular type or even species all together and it becomes extinct. But that doesn't mean the initial breeders didn't breed those types on purpose.

Waste products by accident you say? I've learnt a little about by-products meself. However the by-product objection also fails because something must come out of the process that resulted in the by-product.

I'm not sure anything came out of the dodos, but many modern animals do have extinct ancestors who could be thought of as a waste products.

With human directed evolution are you talking about interspecies breeding? The fact that a mule can't breed is proof that nature was not the cause of it's existence. Natural selection would not work if a creature couldn't breed. This too fails. Remember nature is the subject.

Nope. People do breed new species. We don't do it by crossing species though. We do it by changing each subsequent generation through selective breeding until the last generation could no longer mate with the first generation, even if the first generation were still alive. That's how natural evolution works too.

You are arguing that nature is not designed because there are extinct species. And I am saying that when people design things, we do create things which we later abandon. Therefore abandoned things in nature aren't proof that there was no designer of nature, only that if there is a designer, it sometimes abandons things.