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Why we believe
#7
RE: Why we believe
(January 13, 2015 at 12:52 am)Grasshopper Wrote: I'm going here strictly with a deists view so if you have any argument, direct it as you would direct it to a deist.

May I ask why you'd ask us to do that when your religious views label you an Orthodox Christian?

Quote:It's just that some of us have a sense of wonder about the world and the universe. I'm not talking about myself but for some people I know, the fact that we're on a watery planet going around a ball of gas is miracle enough which I think is a really positive way to look at things like this

I have that sense of wonder too, but I see no need to attribute that to a god. Why would I?

Quote:As for me, the importance of water, complexity of our body, the eyes and the brain make it seem like it was created by someone intelligent.

Would that be the importance of water, when large swathes of the planet are dry as a bone? The complexity of a body full of structural flaws that make no sense considering a designer? The complexity of the eye that we know evolved on multiple different pathways, that has a blind spot, projects its images upside down and is prone to vision imperfections, for which the squid eye is objectively superior? The brain that easily gets damaged?

It seems to me like you're just looking for reasons to believe, ignoring important details in the process. Especially since the complexity of the brain, the eye, the body... they're all explainable using natural means; we already understand this stuff, and god is not required.

Besides, even taking your claim here at face value, it's nothing more than one big argument from ignorance; you don't understand how such things could occur naturally, and that ignorance leads you to assume the existence of design, without evidence.

Quote:That doesn't mean we don't try to find out how they work.

We already know how they work.

Quote:Also I feel that the big bang had a cause/source that did it and set events into place. So two theories arose in my mind-

Got any evidence to go with those feelings? Or do you just accept random assertions as good evidence all the time? Because I could tell you some crazy lies right now... Angel

Quote:1) There was only a single way our universe would turn out and this led to the formation of life on earth (and maybe other planets).
Since there was only one way the universe could've gone forming over the 14 billion years it shines light on the possibility that it was a creator's intention for life to be born.
Conclusion- We were specially meant to be born. We are not an accident.

Your conclusion doesn't match your premise; there's only a single way water will react when its temperature is lowered, doesn't mean it was magically designed. Single outcomes are not necessarily the result of design, and therefore you're going to need more than the outcome to argue for design.

Quote:2) OR there were infinite ways the universe could've turned out in 14 billion years (because chaos) and out of all those infinite possibilities we got this one- where we come to life and evolved and are having this conversation.
Conclusion- We were specially meant to be born. We are not an accident.

Your conclusion doesn't match your premise again: if I draw a hand of cards from a deck, the chances of getting any given sequence of cards in that specific order are very low, that doesn't mean god had to reach down and ordain those cards for me. Low chances are not necessarily hallmarks of design, especially when you don't first establish that there's any significance to the outcome you're examining (and sorry, but you thinking life is special because you're life is not enough to establish significance), so therefore you're going to need more than low chances to argue for design.

Quote:That's my reasoning anyway. I'm not saying theists are right and atheists are wrong. I'm just saying people have different minds and different reasonings with which they make decisions for themselves. You believe it's practical to believe in what we sense with our five senses and what is provable. I believe some things exist beyond what we can sense and hence prove.

If we can't sense or prove these things, what reason do you have for believing them? And before you point to your arguments, those would be ways by which we could sense god, since they exist in the observable universe. Isn't it a bit coincidental that deeper examination of these things shows no god?

And before you just reiterate that it's unprovable, I'd remind you that "no no, it can't be proven!" doesn't relieve you of the necessity of proving it, it just means you've failed at doing so.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee

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Messages In This Thread
Why we believe - by Grasshopper - January 13, 2015 at 12:52 am
RE: Why we believe - by dyresand - January 13, 2015 at 12:58 am
RE: Why we believe - by SteelCurtain - January 13, 2015 at 1:20 am
RE: Why we believe - by Alex K - January 13, 2015 at 1:25 am
RE: Why we believe - by Aoi Magi - January 13, 2015 at 2:15 am
RE: Why we believe - by Grasshopper - January 13, 2015 at 2:55 am
RE: Why we believe - by Esquilax - January 13, 2015 at 3:16 am
RE: Why we believe - by Alex K - January 13, 2015 at 3:21 am
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 3:37 am
RE: Why we believe - by Aoi Magi - January 13, 2015 at 3:56 am
RE: Why we believe - by Grasshopper - January 13, 2015 at 4:07 am
RE: Why we believe - by Alex K - January 13, 2015 at 4:27 am
RE: Why we believe - by Alex K - January 13, 2015 at 4:07 am
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 4:13 am
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 4:30 am
RE: Why we believe - by Grasshopper - January 13, 2015 at 7:47 am
RE: Why we believe - by Alex K - January 13, 2015 at 7:52 am
RE: Why we believe - by Alex K - January 13, 2015 at 4:36 am
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 4:52 am
RE: Why we believe - by Alex K - January 13, 2015 at 5:28 am
RE: Why we believe - by Grasshopper - January 13, 2015 at 7:55 am
RE: Why we believe - by Alex K - January 13, 2015 at 7:57 am
RE: Why we believe - by Grasshopper - January 13, 2015 at 8:15 am
RE: Why we believe - by ManMachine - January 13, 2015 at 8:18 am
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 8:23 am
RE: Why we believe - by StuW - January 13, 2015 at 8:58 am
RE: Why we believe - by strawdawg - January 13, 2015 at 9:17 am
RE: Why we believe - by Alex K - January 13, 2015 at 9:22 am
RE: Why we believe - by strawdawg - January 13, 2015 at 9:33 am
RE: Why we believe - by FatAndFaithless - January 13, 2015 at 9:35 am
RE: Why we believe - by strawdawg - January 13, 2015 at 9:41 am
RE: Why we believe - by FatAndFaithless - January 13, 2015 at 9:43 am
RE: Why we believe - by strawdawg - January 13, 2015 at 9:36 am
RE: Why we believe - by Alex K - January 13, 2015 at 9:43 am
RE: Why we believe - by strawdawg - January 13, 2015 at 4:06 pm
RE: Why we believe - by FatAndFaithless - January 13, 2015 at 4:16 pm
RE: Why we believe - by Alex K - January 13, 2015 at 4:51 pm
RE: Why we believe - by Losty - January 13, 2015 at 6:03 pm
RE: Why we believe - by strawdawg - January 13, 2015 at 6:37 pm
RE: Why we believe - by Alex K - January 14, 2015 at 4:20 am
RE: Why we believe - by Nope - January 13, 2015 at 10:03 am
RE: Why we believe - by ManMachine - January 13, 2015 at 11:24 am
RE: Why we believe - by Nope - January 13, 2015 at 1:39 pm
RE: Why we believe - by dyresand - January 13, 2015 at 9:23 am
RE: Why we believe - by Grasshopper - January 13, 2015 at 9:32 am
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 9:38 am
RE: Why we believe - by Grasshopper - January 13, 2015 at 9:45 am
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 9:46 am
RE: Why we believe - by Alex K - January 13, 2015 at 9:47 am
RE: Why we believe - by Grasshopper - January 13, 2015 at 9:47 am
RE: Why we believe - by Grasshopper - January 13, 2015 at 9:46 am
RE: Why we believe - by Alex K - January 13, 2015 at 9:47 am
RE: Why we believe - by FatAndFaithless - January 13, 2015 at 9:48 am
RE: Why we believe - by Thumpalumpacus - January 13, 2015 at 11:59 am
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 9:48 am
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 9:48 am
RE: Why we believe - by Grasshopper - January 13, 2015 at 9:56 am
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 9:59 am
RE: Why we believe - by Nope - January 13, 2015 at 10:01 am
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 10:02 am
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 10:05 am
RE: Why we believe - by FatAndFaithless - January 13, 2015 at 10:06 am
RE: Why we believe - by strawdawg - January 13, 2015 at 10:21 am
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 10:08 am
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 10:25 am
RE: Why we believe - by Alex K - January 13, 2015 at 10:29 am
RE: Why we believe - by strawdawg - January 13, 2015 at 10:32 am
RE: Why we believe - by Alex K - January 13, 2015 at 10:36 am
RE: Why we believe - by strawdawg - January 13, 2015 at 10:43 am
RE: Why we believe - by Alex K - January 13, 2015 at 10:44 am
RE: Why we believe - by strawdawg - January 13, 2015 at 11:00 am
RE: Why we believe - by Strider - January 13, 2015 at 10:52 am
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 10:31 am
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 10:33 am
RE: Why we believe - by strawdawg - January 13, 2015 at 10:37 am
RE: Why we believe - by Alex K - January 13, 2015 at 10:38 am
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 10:40 am
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 10:44 am
RE: Why we believe - by strawdawg - January 13, 2015 at 10:56 am
RE: Why we believe - by Alex K - January 13, 2015 at 11:01 am
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 10:53 am
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 10:58 am
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 11:04 am
RE: Why we believe - by Davka - January 13, 2015 at 11:16 am
RE: Why we believe - by Minimalist - January 13, 2015 at 1:05 pm
RE: Why we believe - by Thumpalumpacus - January 13, 2015 at 3:03 pm
RE: Why we believe - by The Grand Nudger - January 13, 2015 at 1:08 pm
RE: Why we believe - by Grasshopper - January 13, 2015 at 1:23 pm
RE: Why we believe - by The Grand Nudger - January 13, 2015 at 1:32 pm
RE: Why we believe - by Alex K - January 13, 2015 at 3:28 pm
RE: Why we believe - by Simon Moon - January 13, 2015 at 3:44 pm
RE: Why we believe - by Losty - January 13, 2015 at 4:01 pm
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 4:16 pm
RE: Why we believe - by The Grand Nudger - January 13, 2015 at 4:17 pm
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 13, 2015 at 4:18 pm
RE: Why we believe - by Minimalist - January 13, 2015 at 4:23 pm
RE: Why we believe - by strawdawg - January 13, 2015 at 5:42 pm
RE: Why we believe - by Losty - January 13, 2015 at 5:44 pm
RE: Why we believe - by watchamadoodle - January 13, 2015 at 5:50 pm
RE: Why we believe - by goodwithoutgod - January 13, 2015 at 5:57 pm
RE: Why we believe - by The Grand Nudger - January 13, 2015 at 6:14 pm
RE: Why we believe - by Losty - January 13, 2015 at 6:40 pm
RE: Why we believe - by strawdawg - January 13, 2015 at 6:55 pm
RE: Why we believe - by Thumpalumpacus - January 13, 2015 at 8:54 pm
RE: Why we believe - by The Grand Nudger - January 13, 2015 at 6:43 pm
RE: Why we believe - by goodwithoutgod - January 13, 2015 at 6:59 pm
RE: Why we believe - by strawdawg - January 13, 2015 at 7:22 pm
RE: Why we believe - by Losty - January 13, 2015 at 9:07 pm
RE: Why we believe - by goodwithoutgod - January 13, 2015 at 9:13 pm
RE: Why we believe - by robvalue - January 14, 2015 at 4:17 am

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