Detecting design or intent in nature

[Heywood]

I have always maintained that evolutionary systems required intellect, either as a designer or as a component. I have never claimed that all evolutionary systems were intentionally created by intellects.

Tribes is not an example of an evolutionary system that did not require intellect to be implemented. It may not have been intentional but it certainly needed intellect.

I agree that formation of completely independent self replicating systems is uncommon in the observed universe. But some of that rarity is likely due to our limited horizon in both time and space.

Rarity due to our limited horizon in both time and space is a legitimate counter argument. It is the same counter argument that I use when people claim that we have only observed intellects descending from biological evolution and that makes it more likely that it was biological evolution that came first and not the intellect.

The problem with using it to attack my argument is this. Evolutionary systems don't seem to have any "problem" coming into existence in the presence of intellects even when the intellects have no intention of creating them. Your tribe is a example is a good example of what I am talking about. That suggest to me that there are no significant barriers that would prevent such systems from coming into existence if they could come into existence without intellect. The are quite easy to implement it seems.....intellects implement them without even trying.

Something like abiogenesis you could argue that the conditions required for it are quit unique and say with the massive oxidation of our atmosphere those conditions no longer exist....so consequently we don't observe new lineages of life coming into existence(i.e. we don't observe abiogenesis happening today). That kind of claim with evolutionary systems just doesn't pass the smell test with me. It simply isn't that plausible.

Let me think about about your question about the degree of intellectual involvement. It might take a while as I have been distracted by the claim that numbers are not real but just made up that was made in the another thread.