(August 8, 2010 at 5:32 am)ABierman1986 Wrote: Well, in order to critically analyze what Jesus said there are several initial assumptions you think I am willing to concede. The first is that Jesus existed in the first place. Every symbol associated with the Christ legend has basis in older religions and older foundations still in ancient astrology. The secular writers who wrote of Christ did not appear until decades after his supposed crucifixion and they included numerous other supposed messiahs in their writings as well. There is no external record written in the time that Jesus the man supposedly walked the earth that supports his existence. So I reject this assumption as axiomatically true.
Okay, that's fair enough. Let's say there never was an historical figure. I never met him, so certainly I can't prove it. All I have is the Jesus talked about in the Gospels. And that's the only Jesus Christ I'm talking about. That is the "idea" you have to compete with, because that idea presuposes God. The idea exists; you have to agree with that. It almost doesn't matter if the man existed or not. What does matter is that someone wrote the Gospel of John, and that Gospel changes people and empowers them.
It's kind of like in the movie "Doubt." I never met the real Sister who exposed the priest who was a pedophile. I only know the Meryl Streep version of her. But what difference does that make? The idea of her changes how I think and feel about things in a positive and powerful way.
Where's the power in atheism? Why would I give up God and Jesus Christ only to replace them with nothing? For freedom? Sure, I'm free of the ground when I jump off a cliff, too.
All I'm saying is that if you want to convince religious people of atheism, you have to show them how it is more powerful than what they have. Just being true won't cut it. To quote Pilate: "What is truth?"
(By the way, in the Gospel of Nicodemus, Jesus answers Pilate's question very poignantly.)
Quote:This leads to the second assumption, that what is written down is what Jesus said. The gospel of Jesus does not appear in the bible, nor does any original writing by Jesus himself appear anywhere. The gospels which record Jesus' life were written by men, and several of the gospels were handpicked to be included in the bible long after Christ's supposed death. To say that what has been recorded is the actual verse that Jesus spoke is a huge assumption that is logically inconsistent, as is a thousand person game of telephone.
Fair enough.
Quote:Atheism isn't about enlightenment, or about theists being idiots. Religion obviously has deep, deep roots within the core of humanity for one reason or another. Being a theist may in the end prove to be the right answer, I think it is a mistake to say God is false, end of story. The core of atheist thinking however is to be as harsh as possible about our beliefs, to put them through trial by fire and see if they stand up. So far religion has not passed this test, if you think we are wrong in our logic or assumptions then please discuss how so.
Well, I'm certainly not trying to defend religion, and I think what you have said in the paragraph above could go a long way to making believers think. I think it's a good first step.
Quote:I am hesitant of any idea that does not bring, and warrant, questions, and it is clear why we will be wrong more often than right. What an atheist believes as true should only be that which can bear the brunt of the marvelous capacity for human intelligence.
I agree.
(See, it's working already!)
hock: