RE: Come Oh Ye Rational Thinkers...and explain race theory to me
February 15, 2015 at 12:21 am
(This post was last modified: February 15, 2015 at 1:16 am by tantric.)
:et me preface this by noting that my original post was a rant. I was pissed. I don't expect other people to work with my ideas of racism.
The problem is that you are utterly wrong. You are using the vernacular of racists. This is Wikipedia, but all dictionaries concur:
And no, you can't, well, it's highly unlikely. You can't tell a Siberian from a Kwakiutl, a Khoisan from a Negrito, a Vietnamese from a Cherokee. The variations in the real world are along a spectrum with no fine lines.
I want to be able to use 'human' as my definition. That's all. I'm the conscientious objector. The terms are not particularly useful in describing appearances. The first thing to do is to look at this: skin tones. Now we need some words. I don't see white anywhere there, or black. I'd say 1-9 are Bloodless to Sallow, I've never seen anybody healthly like that. 10-18, Cream, Fawn, Beige, Almond? 19-27 Tan, Bronze, Cafe au Lait, Buff...you get the picture
Huh? They don't agree. I don't expect them to. That was one instance about a technical point. Well, you can demand that I refrain from insisting that Scientific Atheism is a religion and the belief in no god is still just a belief and a form of theology....just for instance.
So when a person looks at my opinions about the Rwanda genocide, having never met or seen me, and decides I'm white? In that context, it means supporter of the Capitalist Imperialist EuroAmerican Christian Patriarchy ™ and yeah, that's annoying. I did correct him, and in fact gave him a summary of my people's history. It didn't fit race theory, so he ignored it. Race theory is a cultural convention, and I don't belong to the culture that uses it. My people have their own theory - we're the Realpeople and y'all are the ColoredPeople (because of how you describe yourselves). For most of human history, race theory amounted to "our tribe is The People, everyone else is a cannibal". Yeah, I can imagine what you think of that, but it's irrelevant. Anyway, its exactly the same way I feel about American race theory.
Okay, let's have some context. I'm writing a setting for RPG's based on Bantu Africa. I've included a few Pygmy cultures on the borders. Since the point of the setting is to see how cultures might develop in best possible setting, I gave some of the pygmies a leg up. The guy who's arguing with me insists that the geSera pygmies in Rwanda live in egalitarian harmony with their Bantu neighbors and that I'm imagining their persecution so that I can feel noble by reimagining them as not nearly extinct. The problem is the 1/3 of the total population of the geSera were murdered in the genocide, which this guy flatly denies happening. You can Wiki it, but all the pygmies have suffered enormous persecution. So, based on this, he decides I'm part of the White Power Structure.
That's offensive on so many levels I don't know where to start. I went with 'racist' because I swore never to use Nazi analogies in an internet debate.
Close. I have low latent inhibition.
and a 160 IQ. I have no filters. I can't just classify something and tune it out. For instance, if I'm in a room with books, I'll read the spine of each and every one. That applies to people. I can't look at a person, say 'black' and stop. I look at grooming, posture, clothing, facial expression, etc, etc. Human beings are like a fire hose of information. I don't see the world like other people. Shorthand classifications are useless - the best I can do is try to evaluate what 'race' a person identifies with. But of course, other people look at me and see the shorthand. I can't expect them to see like I do, and wouldn't want them to, so I just offer another shorthand - 'human'.
I was responding to a specific incident that really pissed me off. I don't normally care. I was very privileged and entitled during the two years I spent in a maximum security prison. Yeah, I know LOTS about race relations. I sat down at a table with an MS13, who had '13' tattooed across his forehead in Mayan numerals and showed him my Jaguar tat. Ojale. Since I could only have religious books, I got a bilingual copy of the Koran and got the Nation of Islam guy next door to teach me. I think that gangster rap is a disease, a sick scam where 'rappers' sell the idea that violence and crime are part of artistic integrity and prison is the road to being a star. I played DnD in prison with a protoAryan and a Nuwabian and a babyraper turned hyperchristian. And all of them are people to me. I don't think I could have done those things if I stopped at race. This is not some ivory tower theory - it's life experience.
And WTF? My species is Homo sapiens. My race is human - the other options being Martian, Vulcan and Alien Transvestite Robot? Want to know how deepset this is for me? Here's a nifty little anecdote.
I like rational, efficient systems. I live in the USA and use metric. The name 'USA' bugs me, but so what. I call all over the counter medicines by their chemical names. I reject Abrahamic religious concepts - I tried my damnedest (humor) to edit out of my language, but its useless. I say "the data are" when talking science and "the data is" when using computer jargon. I spent several months learning Lojban. When I was in HS I invented a script for phonetic English so I could record people's dialects accurately. Even though I grew up in the deep South with VERY southern parents, I've never had a Southern accent. I had a three way with ChiChi LaRue. I taught myself organic chemistry and set up an MDMA lab so I could give it away, fighting the War on Some Drugs. That's me. Human, Reincarnated pygmy, one of the Rainbow people.
(February 14, 2015 at 2:27 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: 'You are white' is not racist. 'You are white, therefore you have white privilege' is not racist. 'You are white, therefore you are an oppressor of minorities' IS racist. Essentially, racism is ascribing attributes to a person because of the race they belong to, to which their race is irrelevant. Merely acknowledging what race you (apparently) belong to is not racist. A race is a regional variation of a species. In humans, you can often determine what continent a person's ancestors were from at fifty paces. But also in humans, there is no evidence that race alone affects character.
The problem is that you are utterly wrong. You are using the vernacular of racists. This is Wikipedia, but all dictionaries concur:
Quote:Racialism is the belief that the human species is naturally divided into distinct biological categories called 'races.' According to the Oxford English Dictionary, racialism is synonymous with racism.[1]
And no, you can't, well, it's highly unlikely. You can't tell a Siberian from a Kwakiutl, a Khoisan from a Negrito, a Vietnamese from a Cherokee. The variations in the real world are along a spectrum with no fine lines.
(February 14, 2015 at 2:27 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: What right do you have to expect other people to adopt the same label use that you do? And you seem to have conflated 'race theory' with the fact that humans have minor physical variations as a result of evolution that are useful in describing a person's appearance.
I want to be able to use 'human' as my definition. That's all. I'm the conscientious objector. The terms are not particularly useful in describing appearances. The first thing to do is to look at this: skin tones. Now we need some words. I don't see white anywhere there, or black. I'd say 1-9 are Bloodless to Sallow, I've never seen anybody healthly like that. 10-18, Cream, Fawn, Beige, Almond? 19-27 Tan, Bronze, Cafe au Lait, Buff...you get the picture
(February 14, 2015 at 2:27 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: What right do you have to insist that other people agree with you that they're being racist? If I mow your lawn without being asked, does that oblige you to mow mine? Or do some other favor for me? You don't necessarily deserve to be treated the exact same way you are treating someone else. What you are askig for is not necessarily on the same axis as what you're giving. If I call you human instead of white, what does that entitle me to demand from you in return?
Huh? They don't agree. I don't expect them to. That was one instance about a technical point. Well, you can demand that I refrain from insisting that Scientific Atheism is a religion and the belief in no god is still just a belief and a form of theology....just for instance.
(February 14, 2015 at 2:27 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: You didn't have it applied to you. Someone called you 'white'. If you're not white, correct them. If you are white, you're getting worked up over a fact. And if you consider 'white' an insult...that's kind of racist, man.
So when a person looks at my opinions about the Rwanda genocide, having never met or seen me, and decides I'm white? In that context, it means supporter of the Capitalist Imperialist EuroAmerican Christian Patriarchy ™ and yeah, that's annoying. I did correct him, and in fact gave him a summary of my people's history. It didn't fit race theory, so he ignored it. Race theory is a cultural convention, and I don't belong to the culture that uses it. My people have their own theory - we're the Realpeople and y'all are the ColoredPeople (because of how you describe yourselves). For most of human history, race theory amounted to "our tribe is The People, everyone else is a cannibal". Yeah, I can imagine what you think of that, but it's irrelevant. Anyway, its exactly the same way I feel about American race theory.
(February 14, 2015 at 2:27 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: You sound like you're being an asshole about it to me. It's not nice to push people's button, but some people have too many buttons.
Okay, let's have some context. I'm writing a setting for RPG's based on Bantu Africa. I've included a few Pygmy cultures on the borders. Since the point of the setting is to see how cultures might develop in best possible setting, I gave some of the pygmies a leg up. The guy who's arguing with me insists that the geSera pygmies in Rwanda live in egalitarian harmony with their Bantu neighbors and that I'm imagining their persecution so that I can feel noble by reimagining them as not nearly extinct. The problem is the 1/3 of the total population of the geSera were murdered in the genocide, which this guy flatly denies happening. You can Wiki it, but all the pygmies have suffered enormous persecution. So, based on this, he decides I'm part of the White Power Structure.
That's offensive on so many levels I don't know where to start. I went with 'racist' because I swore never to use Nazi analogies in an internet debate.
(February 14, 2015 at 2:27 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Are you on the autism spectrum? I don't mean offense, it would help me to know that in responding to you. You seem to take some things very literally. Plenty of Hispanic people are white. Some are Native Americans. Many are a mix. Fortunately for them being in 'racial limbo', their race is independent of what language they speak or what country they were born in. It depends on what region their ancestors were from. The only real 'racial limbo' that is relevant is that there has been so much intermixing of European and Native American and African that they are indeed 'racially ambigious'.
Close. I have low latent inhibition.
and a 160 IQ. I have no filters. I can't just classify something and tune it out. For instance, if I'm in a room with books, I'll read the spine of each and every one. That applies to people. I can't look at a person, say 'black' and stop. I look at grooming, posture, clothing, facial expression, etc, etc. Human beings are like a fire hose of information. I don't see the world like other people. Shorthand classifications are useless - the best I can do is try to evaluate what 'race' a person identifies with. But of course, other people look at me and see the shorthand. I can't expect them to see like I do, and wouldn't want them to, so I just offer another shorthand - 'human'.
(February 14, 2015 at 2:27 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: When I look at you, I think 'touchy', 'oversensitive', 'privileged', and 'over-entitled'.
Human is your species, not your race. 'Human race' is an inaccurate experession, aren't you obsessed with semantic precision, or is that only for other people?
I was responding to a specific incident that really pissed me off. I don't normally care. I was very privileged and entitled during the two years I spent in a maximum security prison. Yeah, I know LOTS about race relations. I sat down at a table with an MS13, who had '13' tattooed across his forehead in Mayan numerals and showed him my Jaguar tat. Ojale. Since I could only have religious books, I got a bilingual copy of the Koran and got the Nation of Islam guy next door to teach me. I think that gangster rap is a disease, a sick scam where 'rappers' sell the idea that violence and crime are part of artistic integrity and prison is the road to being a star. I played DnD in prison with a protoAryan and a Nuwabian and a babyraper turned hyperchristian. And all of them are people to me. I don't think I could have done those things if I stopped at race. This is not some ivory tower theory - it's life experience.
And WTF? My species is Homo sapiens. My race is human - the other options being Martian, Vulcan and Alien Transvestite Robot? Want to know how deepset this is for me? Here's a nifty little anecdote.
I like rational, efficient systems. I live in the USA and use metric. The name 'USA' bugs me, but so what. I call all over the counter medicines by their chemical names. I reject Abrahamic religious concepts - I tried my damnedest (humor) to edit out of my language, but its useless. I say "the data are" when talking science and "the data is" when using computer jargon. I spent several months learning Lojban. When I was in HS I invented a script for phonetic English so I could record people's dialects accurately. Even though I grew up in the deep South with VERY southern parents, I've never had a Southern accent. I had a three way with ChiChi LaRue. I taught myself organic chemistry and set up an MDMA lab so I could give it away, fighting the War on Some Drugs. That's me. Human, Reincarnated pygmy, one of the Rainbow people.
My book, a setting for fantasy role playing games based on Bantu mythology: Ubantu
