determinism versus indeterminism

[josef rosenkranz]

What I call statistic you call probabilistic but they are essentially the same feature of physical laws because the very notion of "possibility"or "probability" does not implicate total indeterminism but leaves open a factor to be completed for the whole of the picture which
is just determinism.

Hmm, I disagree. We say that shuffling cards of flipping coins is 'random', but only insofar as we our brains can't keep up with the mechanics of what's happening: we could, potentially, model the coin classically and determine whether heads or tails will come up.
However, there is the added complication of quantum mechanics: there is a tiny (but non-zero) chance that the coin will do something quantum in the air, and the result will be different to what we classically expect.

This is what I mean by the universe being ultimately indeterminate. Macroscopic phenomena are deterministic only insofar as they have a very have probability of agreeing with the predictions of classical mechanics. When you get right down to it, there is an extraordinarily slim chance that, say, the underwear of that woman will 'pop' five feet to the left.

It is in this way that the universe is indeterminate: you cannot say with complete confidence what will happen to a given system at some arbitrary time in the future.

I still affirm that most,if not all,laws of the universe and especially those concerning life are of a statistic (probabilistic) nature meaning the they
are subject to both deterministic and indeterministic features.
In my opinion one shall not oppose within a physical law determinism versus indetreminism but rather speak of a duality of them.

I'm not sure we're using the word 'determinism' and 'indeterminism' in the same way. When you say something has 'deterministic' features, what exactly do you mean?

DD Hi
As you may have already noticed all the wrestlers have left the arena
for both of us alone.
May be that they have thought that the subject has burnt out and bears no further real interest.
But you asked me a new question and "obliged" me to answer.
Both, determinism and indeterminism have a lot of synonyme names with total or partial parallel meanings.
Indeterminism appears in a variety of names such as chaos,random ,chance,uncertainity,probability,
etc,,and determinism in such names as prediction ,order,etc,,
Now,where I write indeterministic or deterministic features I mean,generally speaking , one of the above notions,considering that for
each particular case one of them might be the most appropriate.
Here is an example of what I consider as the dual coexistence of both features, from the area of electricity, which is close to my understanding, being an electrical engineer.
Let's consider the most simple law of electricity namely the law of Ohm
and let's imagine the following experiment:we take a battery (as in our car of 12 volts) and connect in series a resistance of 1 ohm ,an ammeter and an on/off switch.
Before closing the switch the ammeter measures a value of current equal to 0.
After closing the switch the ammeter will measure exactly 12 amperes.
We can repeat the experiment for any times we want and we will get the same result. Right?..not exactly. The measured current depends on the accuracy of the measuring instrument so that the result is only partially predictable within practical conventional limits .
Let's imagine that we use an infinite accurate instrument (which exists only in theory but never in practice) and repeat the experiment.
Now, long before we arrive at the randomness of the results due to the uncertainity principle ,we will stumble on macro physical factors which will cause the randomness of the results due to the surrounding conditions where the experiment takes place such as temperature of the probe (resistance) ,humidity ,atmospheric pressure ,intensity of light,etc,,
From all these external conditions which affect the value of the measured current, the temperature is the most evident factor as being a random factor.
Remember the second principle of Thermodynamics which speaks about the increasing enthropy of the universe which means between others that the temperature of an object is intrinsecally random for being influenced by never calculable external energies of heat.
Now comig back to our experimenr we see thar within conventional limits the measured value of the current is predictable,i.e.deterministic and beyond these limits it becomes probabilistic with outcomes never
exactly predictable,i.e.indeterministic.
I will not argue with you if from a philosophic point of view you will correct my conclusion but in essence the duality of predictability and random as described in the experiment cannot be denied.