Reverse Pascals Wager

[Godscreated]

Why do you presume you can set the rules for God's court. God has already set the rules and guess what you can not get in on your own merit it will not stand up to God's rules.

It's interesting how Christians assert that they believe in an absolute and objective standard of morality and then claim that God (or their god Yahweh) operates by a different set of standards that can't be properly understood by humans. This is how they justify the oddities that human sacrifice somehow makes everything better and how a loving god can torture people in Hell forever.

If you believe in an objective and universal standard of morality, than the same rules should apply to Yahweh as any human ruler of a country. So you can see that I'm not "setting the rules for God's court" but am simply applying the same judgment that I would to any court.

One universal standard of moral justice that I think we can agree on is that moral justice demands that the criminal alone must pay the penalty for a crime. An innocent person can't be punished in place of the criminal, even if the innocent person is willing. We would never accept this from any other country. "Jesus took our place on the cross"? Why is it OK for Yahweh to have this standard of justice?

And what about this ancient idea that blood sacrifice makes everything better? If I told you that I worshiped a volcano god and my people once sacrificed a virgin by throwing her into a volcano and that appeased the wrath of the gods, you'd probably say my belief was both ridiculous and barbaric. Even if I didn't participate in the sacrifice ritual, how could I glorify such an act of cruelty? What if instead I believed that 2000 years ago, we took a pure-hearted virgin, beat the crap out of him and nailed him to a cross to appease my god's wrath?

I'm sure you and I could also agree that a leader of a country who punished people for thought-crimes would be immoral, yes? What about when Yahweh does it? According to you, the most important aspect of our character is what our metaphysical beliefs are, at least in Yahweh's eyes. If I fail to believe that Jesus died on the cross for my sins, Yahweh will torture me forever in Hell. This is eternal torture for thought crimes.

And let's talk about the morality of Hell. The purpose of punishment is to correct bad behavior. Moral punishment is both proportional to the crime and seeks to correct the behavior or at least protect future victims. Hell is the most horrific torture imagined by humans, the kind that would be condemned by international law were it ever to be implemented by any leader of any country. Additionally, since there is no possible parole from Hell, it can't rehabilitate. It's sole purpose is for torture.

Any parent who poured gasoline on a child and burned the child alive would be rightly arrested for child abuse, no matter how naughty the child had been. What about when Yahweh does it?

By the standards that we would evaluate the morality and justice of any world leader or parent, can you honestly say that Yahweh is just?

Why would you consider that humans could ever understand an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent God, that is not logical. Your definition of sacrifice and Christ's definition of sacrifce are very different. What you've written in your first paragraph is man killing another man to appease God. Christ plainly told the Roman soldiers that He willingly was allowing these events to take place. He also told His disciples that He was laying down His own life for mankind, this was a voluntary act of His own will, His decision and no others. Sort of like you would volunteer(sacrifice) your own time to help someone, Christ as a man volunteered His life to save all those who would choose to believe He did this for them. Yes to save people from an everlasting punishment.

This final court is not a human court and as I explained above God is not completely understandable by mans limited mind. Why do you believe that man can judge God or even apply rules to Him. God set these standards for man to help him live a moral and better life and when one is broken there are consequences, just as when a person breaks mans law that person has to pay a penilty.

This is the only way it could be, Christ said I am the way and the life without me no one can come to the Father. Christ's death is a gift to mankind, it's His way of showing us how much love He has for us. Yahwah desires that all would have eternal life and not suffer the eternal punishment.

To your forth paragraph, yes I would say you were barbaric to force a person to die at the hands of others or even to believe that would be ok and you can't glorifiy such an act of cruelty. This is not what happened in the sacrifice of Christ as I explained above.

To answer your 5th paragraph, to not believe Christ is our savior is not a thought process it is an action that is lived out physically. If someone says I believe that Christ died for my sins and continued their immoral life then thats just talk, there is no true heart change and the heart change is what happens to true believers. The actions are not our salvation they are the proof of our acceptance of Christ as our savior.

Yes let's talk about the morality of hell. First of all it's not torture that would mean God is cruel and He's not. It is however a punishment that is everlasting and not one I would want and one I do not fear anymore. You are correct in saying that hell isn't meant for rehabilitation, neither is a life sentence or the death penalty. These are punishments for crimes so horrible that they demand this type of punishment, agreed. Because of mans mortality he can't be put to death over and over and a life sentence does not continue on for ever this is why they are considered punishment from man to man.
Now we enter the realm of the eternal God and these above punishments would be no punishments at all because they have an end. In an eternal realm only an eternal punishment is logical and this is why it's a moral punishment. You have chosen to sin against the eternal God and to reject the volantary sacrifice of Christ and the life that choice intells so you have relinquished the gift of eternal life with God and acceptted an eternal punishment with yourself. I,m sure you must think the last part of the previous sentence sounds wierd but it's not. If God were to distroy all who go to hell that would in itself be immoral because that would be letting them out of a punishment in an eternal realm, that would not serve as justice to those who chose Christ as their savior. Many on this forum have said they would rather go to hell for eternity than serve the God of heaven, what truth they have spoken, God is not going to bring them in the Heavenly Realm where they or anyone else that has rejected Christ in this life to live forever, that would be torturing them and the loving God is not a torturer. So you see eternal hell is a place where those who have rejected god and cursed Him in this life can continue own for all eternity. I believe that God could not describe the real hell to man because our limited mind could not understand, I believe hell is a place of total loneliness where love is completely absent even God's love and man can continue to hate God, verbalize against God and live an eternal life away from Him just as they chose in this life. Enough said I'm out of breath.

Finally to answer your last question yes God is just we can't judge Him by our standards because we're not omniscient.