JW looking for clarity

[Alex K]

No, Heywood, conservation of energy is an observational fact. Within our universe, it *could* even be violated by a new type of as yet undiscovered forces or some such. It's not something that is even defined before there is a universe.

What existed before there was a universe?  The same thing that exists now.  Reality.  Why wouldn't the same rules that apply to reality today also apply to reality before there was a universe?  Do we have any reason whatsoever to believe that realities and their sub realities are not self similar?

I'm not familiar with the conservation of energy  proves god argument.  However if you are basing your refutation of it on speculation that conservation of energy might now always hold....I find that to be a stretch....and a really weak refutation.

Ok, let's back up a little. Do we assume that time exists independent from the universe, sort of as a frame on which creation happens? If no, then the notion of energy does not exist without the universe and hence there is no argument. If yes, we can talk.

In general relativity, conservation laws of any kind pertaining to particles are related to symmetries, e.g of spacetime, and conservation of energy is violated in nature because spacetime is not static - just think
of cosmological red shift, which steals energy from photons. Now, the curvature of spacetime can be assigned energy in order to compensate, and in fact in our current universe, it contains negative energy in this picture. The total energy of this universe can be zero, so it could even be created without violating energy conservation. In absence of space but in the presence of time, who knows though, what contributions to energy there are - our current notion of conserved energy breaks down in absence of space.