Being gay is a fetish.

[John V]

So you basically just don't want to address what the point of the argument actually is,

The points of my arguments are my own. You don't get to tell me what the point of the argument actually is.

which is that immorality cannot be applied to things people have no choice in,

You're arguing that people have no choice over attraction. I haven't argued that any particular attractions are immoral. Straw man much?

So you're asserting that we should trust those with no idea of what the experience of gay people is like,

No, I'm not arguing we should trust particular people. That's another straw man.

I'm arguing that, considering twins studies and differences in sexuality across times and cultures, the logical conclusion is that the born gay paradigm is false.

over people that have some idea? That seems cogent to you?

Yes, it's quite cogent to be suspicious of personal testimony from people that have an agenda. Atheists do it all the time with Christians. It's a fairly standard procedure.

Laugh all you want, the APA's own resources, linked from their website, specifically state that there is no scientific consensus on this issue.

That's my point. No consensus means ambiguity.

This'll do ya. 

No, it won't. First, the link doesn't work. Second, it's wikipedia. Link to scientific studies, please.

Notice how absolutely none of the studies done make the blithe "it's a choice" derpery that you did in your initial argument from ignorance.

In what post did I say "it's a choice"?

If you're paraphrasing, please use italics or something other than quotation marks.

There isn't a consensus on the issue, but nobody even sees your conclusion as a legitimate area of study.

As I've talked about identical twins studies which have been done, yes, some people see it as a legitimate area of study.

So we should believe you, with zero information as to their experiences, over them, because... you say so?

No, you should consider the twins studies, cultural differences, and evidence that bis have been pressured into adopting the born gay paradigm.

How is this an argument from ignorance?

Modern western gays claim that they were born gay - it's true unless you can disprove it is an argument from ignorance, and it seems to be all you have.

I give an example, you dismiss it out of hand... how is my noting that you've given no reason for your dismissal other than an assertion that you cannot possibly know about not sufficient rebuttal?

And again, I've offered twins studies, cultural differences, and gay discrimination against bis as evidence. you can say I've "given no reason" as often as you like, but anyone reading the thread knows it's not true. You may not find the evidence conclusive - doesn't bother me. But you're outright lying when you claim I've given no reasons.

Yep. The difference is that I'm actually living the life of an LGBTQ person, and so have sufficient evidence to refute your argument from ignorance right off the bat. Oh, and I'm not sitting here asserting that what I'm saying is the default and you have to prove me wrong, either. I'm just saying that when there isn't a consensus, there isn't a consensus, but I trust the contents of my own mind over whether this is a choice more than your fiat assertion and a study that, at best, merely rules out an exclusively genetic origin.

You can trust the contents of your own mind all you want - but there's no reason for me to trust them.

When a Christian claims truth based on their own experience, atheists rightly make the same protest.

Your only response to that is to tell me I'm lying, but you don't know me, you can't read my mind, and so that response is simply one of ignorance made to retain the conclusion you'd already come to before I'd even started speaking.

My response isn't that you're lying - those are your words, and another straw man. An error from confirmatin bias doesn't indicate that the person was lying, it means that they were unconsciously selecting and interpreting data to fit their desired conclusion.

I don't sit here and just invalidate everything you say through fiat dismissal, because I can see that that doesn't get us anywhere. Is it too much to ask that you do the same?

If all you have to go on is your personal experience, then yes, it is too much to ask. A Christian could make the same plea, but it wouldn't get him anywhere on this board.

Was the conclusion of either of those sets of studies that homosexuality is a choice?

The reasonable conclusion from those studies is that people are not born gay as people are born black.