JW looking clarity followup

[Won2blv]

Right well...

Your opinions seem to contradict the opinions of a huge number of other Christians. Although I do respect you a lot for owning your beliefs and opinions. I get tired of people being unable to distinguish between beliefs and facts.

It's up to you if you want to discuss it further. As someone who doesn't believe any of it from either your perspective or other Christians who are opposed to you, it's very baffling how you can't all agree. And since neither side has any evidence at all there's no way to know who is right, if anyone.

That's just my opinion Don't feel you have to respond if you don't want to.

Why do you believe these things, and how come they aren't just different but entirely opposite to millions of Christians who worship the same God?

Well, surprise surprise, but we believe that the other religions just have it wrong. It is interesting to me that in my recent agnosticism, hearing a lot of criticism of religion that I feel JW's aren't worthy of. And even some of the ones that they are can be argued. Like blood transfusions. I have had a hard time with this but I find it interesting to read articles about the benefits of not accepting blood transfusions. Or the fact that there are hundreds of bloodless surgery wings at hospitals. I don't think they developed those just for the few witnesses in America. Jw's simply believe that Satan is in control of the world and humankind in general. Not like they are his robots and minions but more in a manipulating manner. So it only makes sense to us that most humans would spread false beliefs. Look at holidays, they have ZERO christian background. But people seem to get more amped for christmas than church. But hey, presents! So, this is almost a glib explanation but god or no god i Think JW's believe in more true things than most religions

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Perhaps you're right. But I choose to not take Raymond Franzs words as absolute.

I take no issue with that stance, it's a rightly cautious one.  But the timeline I gave in my last post is mostly independent of Franz's view of what happened.  It gives a very strong impression that the organization made changes to rules and policies specifically to find cause to remove a person.  Combined with the policy regarding shunning those who are disfellowshipped it is a very effective way of keeping dissenting voices out of the group.  That is considered a positive outcome in the context of a godly people shielding itself from satanic influence.  But outside of a religious context, we tend to view such isolation as a dangerous thing.  And even within religions, the silencing of dissention is only a good thing when it benefits the individual's group, but seen as a dangerous thing in any other religious organization.  Which is to say, you are required to take the governing body's word as absolute, even though you know that at least one of its members turned out to be an apostate.

That alone should make one suspicious at the least.  The truth as given by the greatest intellect in existence should not be so easy to twist or corrupt that we must be shielded from it by... fellow human beings.  Especially when they show that they're just as fallible as anyone else, yet demand unquestioning obedience.

But your point was that the people had no issues and didn't want to speak out and they got shunned anyway. If they're dissenting voices then they can't try to play coy when confronted with their words and actions. Clearly this is a good policy for a cult. But I don't see why it can't be acknowledged as a good policy for an organization in general that teaches what the bibles says about a unity of spirit. The Governing Body has been wrong about many things, but in my opinion, they're minor. Thats why even if I leave JW's officially I made an oath that I'll never turn sour. Because I do believe that I have learned many good truths either way. I know what happened to my mom when she died. I don't tell people she is looking at me from heaven. Thats just one thing. But that one thing gives me peace of mind to one of the biggest mind effs religions do, and that is telling people that they're family is watching them from heaven

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I feel about this the same I feel about the trinity. There are scriptures that you could read that seem to make Jesus and God the same being, but if you add up all the scriptures that clearly differentiate the two then it can be reasonably assumed that the other scriptures are figures of speech. The same is true with this account. It could be construed as an allusion to hell. The greek word that was translated hell was also used in Revelation 20 when it was prophesied that it would be cast into the lake of fire. So why would the eternal torment be cast into the eternal torment? It being an illustration is the only logical conclusion. Also, I believe that the word hell is more likely referring to the grave of man. Much like the word Sheol in hebrew

1. Can you read Greek nicanica123?


2. Jesus and God are not the same being. So explain this then, and just for you I'll quote from the NWT:

Genesis 1:17: When Abraham got to be ninety-nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to Abraham and said to him "I am God Almighty. Walk before me and prove yourself faultless.
Isaiah 13:6: "Howl, YOU people, for the day of Jehovah is near! As a despoiling from the Almighty it will come.
Revelation 1:8: "I am Alpha and Omega," says Jehovah God, "the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty."
Revelation 4:8b:  "Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is coming."
Revelation 11:17: "We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king.
Revelation 22:12-13: "Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.
Isaiah 44:6: "This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, 'I am the first and the last, and besides me there is no God.'

According to those verses, Jehovah is the "first and the last", the "the Almighty", "who was and who is and who is to be", "the alpha and the omega", and "the beginning and the end".

But according to these passages Jesus is the First and the Last:

Revelation 1:17b-18: And he laid his right hand upon me and said: "Do not be fearful.. I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, looik! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and Hades.
Revelation 2:8: "And to the angel of the congregation in Smyrna write: These are the things that he says, 'the First and the Last,' who became dead and came to life [again].

So then who is the First and the Last? Is it Jesus (as in Revelation 1:17 and 2:8) or is it Jehovah (as in Isaiah 41:4, 44:6, 48:12, and Revelation 22:12-13)?

No, I don't speak greek but I can read the Kingdom Interlinear and compare the greek words in those scriptures. As far as those scriptures, I do believe that you can find scriptures to make an argument for the trinity. But, when I read scriptures like when Jesus was called good teacher and he said, "no one is good but the father" or when God from heaven said, "this is my son, the approved..." I just can't but assume they're two separate beings. I can use a puzzle piece to try and figure out what the puzzle is going to look like and I could be right. But it would take all the pieces to truly know what the picture will be

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1. Why would this almighty god be subjected to what a human demands as proof?

If he's undetectable and unobservable, then who cares if there's an "almighty" God or not?

2. Does gods creation not make him apparent?

Circular logic is illogical.  The existence of things only makes a creator apparent if you have evidence that creator caused the things to exist.  So provide some evidence.

3. If god popped up one day to make himself readily known as existing, would all people serve him any way?

Not while he allows people's loved ones, especially children, suffer needlessly.  If someone could save my son, and refused to because he was testing my free will, I'd have little use for him.  How much more so for an impotent or unwilling God?

4. If gods purpose as I have been taught, is that one day the earth will be a paradise like state with no evil. Back to its original Eden conditions. Proving that Satan, Adam, and Eve were wrong to reject gods sovereignty and humans are not capable of ruling themselves... how would it serve his purpose if people worshipped him out of fear of him killing them rather than from their hearts?

You ask too many random hypotheticals.  What if aliens made humans to farm the Earth, but then the aliens got wiped out by microbial lifeforms, leaving the Earthlings with vague ideas about "gods"?  And if so, what if one man found the body of an alien, unlocking the secret to eternal life, and deliberately arranged for his own crucifiction to prove he was "God"?  What if the universe is a magic space monkey's giant poop?

I'm sure you'll say all these are stupid ideas I pulled out of my ass, right?  Now consider this-- that's how the Bible looks to non Christians.

You missed understand my post. I haven't made a single statement. I expressed what goes through my head, thats all.