Replies to rexbeccarox #36 and Pyrrho #40 on new thread [link].
But which request? The OP itself is a response to a request from a different thread; apparently a larger discussion is migrating from thread to thread in the way I hope that antibiotic is migrating through my tissues. ChadWooter #23 about whether rating our world on a value scale relative to perfection is feasible? I agree with Chad that popping the question is honest; the matter is relevant to belief in a good god. Although I'm less confident the problem can be surmounted. It may be intractable.
BTW, I don't know if Voldemort is real but Gandalf definitely is.
As you can see, I'm one of those who maintain we can't pin it on God just because we believe God is good. I don't see how the desire of God to enjoy a love relationship with humans, which cannot be genuine without human choice (if not the free will that brings its own philosophical problems), has anything to do with rape against children. As other replies have noted, granting choice could not make rape necessary, it only made it possible.
When introducing myself, I explained I don't like organized religion very much anymore, including some of the Christian varieties. Religion has cluttered up exploration of the divine; the various camps won't admit or use the truths other religions offer and layers of doctrine slather on like peanut butter on an overloaded sandwich. While I don't think Christianity holds a monopoly on deity, or that the challenges of humanism and atheism should be ignored with snide dismissal, I haven't given up on believership yet. I still think Christ represents a major breakthrough in the understanding of god, especially in the severe society he ministered to.
The story of the fall reflects something real, although it's been subject to heavy interpretive overlays in the attempt to keep doctrine in conformity with both Old & New Testaments, such as Paul in Romans. I think potential to work evil is in our nature but doubt babies are "born in sin." That's rather extreme on genetic determinism, leaving out the influence of the environment. Sin, or evil if we prefer, is inevitable because our environment contains so much of it. Indeed, we can't tiptoe past evil very long once born, so we fall pretty fast. I don't think Paul claimed babies were born sinful at Romans 5:12 either, despite saying that "all have sinned." Instead, he said that the entry of sin into the world caused death to become universal.
I certainly hope you do not end yourself. Used to be about 40 years was all we had coming if we survived infancy, but today odds have improved and there's lots to enjoy even in those tough later years. I too imagine better worlds, and hope to enter one when I die, although I don't know what really happens in death.
The Christianity I like best today is the one that emphasizes the social gospel. This includes liberation theology, as with Bishop Gerardi in Guatemala before he was murdered in 1998, and with the United Church and Presbyterian (USA), etc. The latter churches now ordain both women and openly gay people, a big positive recent step.
For non-believers, there are spiritual or humanistic secular efforts at helping the world. The world sucks, but it's not a hopeless place while we're here.
(May 15, 2015 at 3:37 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Demonstrating that the initial request was...set up to fail.
But which request? The OP itself is a response to a request from a different thread; apparently a larger discussion is migrating from thread to thread in the way I hope that antibiotic is migrating through my tissues. ChadWooter #23 about whether rating our world on a value scale relative to perfection is feasible? I agree with Chad that popping the question is honest; the matter is relevant to belief in a good god. Although I'm less confident the problem can be surmounted. It may be intractable.
(May 1, 2015 at 8:52 am)Nope Wrote: Many Christians when asked why there is evil in the world, respond that god allowed us free will in order for us to freely decide to love him. Because humans have free will, evil things happen in the world as a result of human actions. God is not, according to them, responsible for human actions. This means that babies are raped because god wants love.
BTW, I don't know if Voldemort is real but Gandalf definitely is.
As you can see, I'm one of those who maintain we can't pin it on God just because we believe God is good. I don't see how the desire of God to enjoy a love relationship with humans, which cannot be genuine without human choice (if not the free will that brings its own philosophical problems), has anything to do with rape against children. As other replies have noted, granting choice could not make rape necessary, it only made it possible.
(May 2, 2015 at 7:53 am)alpha male Wrote: In the other thread, I had suggested that someone read the Bible. Also, with this opening, and the title of the thread, you seem to be trying to shift the discussion from your first claim to a general discussion of the problem of evil...If you are a theist reading these verses do you believe in a fallen world? Why do you believe there is evil in the world?
When introducing myself, I explained I don't like organized religion very much anymore, including some of the Christian varieties. Religion has cluttered up exploration of the divine; the various camps won't admit or use the truths other religions offer and layers of doctrine slather on like peanut butter on an overloaded sandwich. While I don't think Christianity holds a monopoly on deity, or that the challenges of humanism and atheism should be ignored with snide dismissal, I haven't given up on believership yet. I still think Christ represents a major breakthrough in the understanding of god, especially in the severe society he ministered to.
The story of the fall reflects something real, although it's been subject to heavy interpretive overlays in the attempt to keep doctrine in conformity with both Old & New Testaments, such as Paul in Romans. I think potential to work evil is in our nature but doubt babies are "born in sin." That's rather extreme on genetic determinism, leaving out the influence of the environment. Sin, or evil if we prefer, is inevitable because our environment contains so much of it. Indeed, we can't tiptoe past evil very long once born, so we fall pretty fast. I don't think Paul claimed babies were born sinful at Romans 5:12 either, despite saying that "all have sinned." Instead, he said that the entry of sin into the world caused death to become universal.
(May 15, 2015 at 5:20 pm)robvalue Wrote: I imagine a world infinitely better than this every time I close my eyes.
I certainly hope you do not end yourself. Used to be about 40 years was all we had coming if we survived infancy, but today odds have improved and there's lots to enjoy even in those tough later years. I too imagine better worlds, and hope to enter one when I die, although I don't know what really happens in death.
The Christianity I like best today is the one that emphasizes the social gospel. This includes liberation theology, as with Bishop Gerardi in Guatemala before he was murdered in 1998, and with the United Church and Presbyterian (USA), etc. The latter churches now ordain both women and openly gay people, a big positive recent step.
For non-believers, there are spiritual or humanistic secular efforts at helping the world. The world sucks, but it's not a hopeless place while we're here.
