RE: The Historical Reliability of the New Testament
May 16, 2015 at 11:18 pm
(This post was last modified: May 16, 2015 at 11:25 pm by Randy Carson.)
(May 16, 2015 at 9:49 pm)robvalue Wrote: The reason I'm not addressing any particular point here is that I'm happy to concede absolutely all of it and get on to the only important part: what supernatural stuff actually happened. You said yourself in the other thread, it doesn't matter what people believed, it matters what the truth is. And all the bible can ever tell you is what people believed. So if I grant you everyone is an eye witness, every non-supernatural word you want is true, even the authors are very reliable and honest whatever you like. Then what?
Well, you're right, Rob. In the end, we are making a judgment call about what the authors/eyewitnesses reported. This happens in courtrooms around the world every day. Jurors are asked to evaluate evidence, to consider the credibility of the witnesses, and to make a decision. The evidence for Christianity is stronger than most of the members of this forum would lead you to believe and better than authors like Bart Ehrman care to admit. I don't know which books you've read, of course, but I'm confident that there are some Christians with more than enough mental horse-power to argue side, and it would be to your advantage to read some of their books to hear the other side.
Quote:I understand if you don't want to move to the end of the argument, but I'm just saying why it makes no difference to me until we get to that stage. At some point a leap of faith is required to just believe what the people in the bible believed. Can you explain why that is not the case?
Hmmm...I guess I would want to ask you what you mean by leap of faith. If you mean that you say, "Well, I have no idea whether Christianity is true or not, but I'm just going to believe it anyway", then no, that is not what Christianity is about. Unfortunately, there are some very bitter, angry and hurt people active in this forum with HUGE chips on their shoulders, and they are the ones who seem to think that there is no logical or reasonable basis for accepting the claims of Christianity as true.
But if you mean that you can evaluate all the evidence presented objectively, then I don't think it's such a big "leap" to conclude that the claims of Christianity regarding the resurrection of Jesus really is the best explanation of all the facts.
(May 16, 2015 at 10:10 pm)Minimalist Wrote:Quote:The Jewish Temple was destroyed in AD 70. The Jews know this. Ask them.
That's not what your godboy said, asshole.
Why are you so angry at God, Min?
(May 16, 2015 at 10:35 pm)robvalue Wrote: Nestor: No, I haven't seen any attempt either, and I'm interested to know if there is going to be something to bridge that gap or not. If not, this is just textual analysis. Which is fine.
As to my point, I trust my wife more than anyone in the world. But if she came to me and said, "I just saw a ghost", I will not believe her that she actually saw a ghost. I will believe that she believes it, and nothing more, until I have any evidence to examine. Even if 100 other people back up her story, I still won't believe it was actually a ghost.
Given this, why would I believe a bunch of guys from 2000 years ago more than my wife, and other people I can actually talk to, when their claims are even more fantastical? And this is conceding a huge amount, that what is written is actually what they believed. But you can have that for free.
Wow. Your ghost post is eerily similar to this story.
Quote:The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
So, you would not believe if your wife said she saw a ghost, and you would not believe even if someone should rise from the dead.
Seems like Jesus has you pegged, Rob.
