Why be good?

[Randy Carson]

I'm not asking whether atheists can be good people or whether they are good people. Despite much of the rudeness and foul language directed at me (and others) in this forum, it should be obvious that atheists may strive to be kind, tolerant, generous and respectful toward others. And they do this because they recognize that "right" and "wrong" behavior is real and not theoretical.

What I am asking is: what is the BASIS for objective moral behavior? Where does it come from?

If some feel that they have already answered, my apologies; however, I re-phrased my OP based on a quick scan of a few responses.

I will try to get through all of the posts as quickly as time permits. Sorry for the delay.

Sorry but that is not even remotely what you asked in the OP:

As I just posted to SteelCurtain, the questions are related, but I do regret the wording of the second post. I will stick to why for now.

If there is no God, then there is no hell; and if there is no hell, then there are no ultimate, eternal repercussions, good or bad, for how we live out our mortal lives. Of course, atheists insist that people should be "good without God."

But why? If God does not exist, why be good?

You originally asked why be good if there are no god made consequences?  To which many of us replied, there certainly are consequences for bad behavior right here and now, both for society as whole, the victim, and the person behaving badly.  And that further, evolution has given us empathy among other useful things which makes us generally want to be good. [/quote]

Empathy is one useful emotion. Taking things by force can be useful, too. I see a lot of that in evolution and not so much in the former.

But more importantly, if you have read the posts, you will have seen many people question me regarding whether I am "good" simply because of fear of judgment of God. It's a fair question, but I want to turn it back now to ask: how many people drive under the speed limit to avoid the ticket? Quite a few. How many people do not shoplift to avoid being arrested? A lot. So, it seems to me, Jenny, that when a Christian points out that we behave in a manner that we believe is pleasing to God, atheists mock us for being afraid of hell. But atheists behave in a similar manner when they are motivated by the "consequences for bad behavior" as you call it.

We could invent objective standards like utility (the best outcome for the most people), selflessness (the best system for societal death under the weight of freeloaders I can imagine), might makes right (the ultimate authoritarian view), and so on.  Such standards can provide a framework for talking about what we should consider right and wrong, but they don't entirely explain what it is we actually do think is right and wrong.

Agreed,

For example consider incest.  Most people have very strong anti-incest reactions.  Visceral reactions.  If pressed most people will tell you that incest is wrong because of possible birth defects.  But in point of fact, unless there are recessive genes likely to produce birth defects shared between the couple, there aren't any real objective reasons why we shouldn't commit incest. And if one member of the couple in infertile, there is no reason why they shouldn't have sex.  Nor are most people mollified if the couple agrees to have one of them rendered infertile.  So at least some of what we consider right and wrong has to do with visceral reaction, not reasons and standards.

I think that evolution has endowed humans, like all social species, with some basic morals, mostly based upon empathy and survival of the species as a whole.   Beyond that it's all societal evolution.   Which is to say, it's not the least bit objective, except that moral systems that survive, survive.  A moral system that produces a working society that can defend itself lasts, one that doesn't doesn't. There is a reason we should not return to the morals of ancient Judea.  That is being tried in the Middle East with rather catastrophic results.  Religious states fair worse than secular ones.  It's less clear whether secular states where most people are religious fair worse than secular states where most people are atheist. 

Most but not all? In the course of evolution, we have evolved with very specific physical features such as two arms, two legs, five senses, and we walk upright, etc. Now, there are some people who are born without all of these things, but the overwhelming majority are. However, I'm not so sure that the number of people born with the same sense of selflessness matches the percentage of those born with our highly evolved physical traits, are you? In fact, don't parents have to spend an awful lot of time TEACHING their otherwise tyrannical toddlers to share their toys and not throw food on the floor when they are mad, etc? And if morality is learned, then is it merely a societal convention rather than a product of evolution (as has been claimed by NUMEROUS respondents in this thread)?

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If there is no God, then there is no hell; and if there is no hell, then there are no ultimate, eternal repercussions, good or bad, for how we live out our mortal lives. Of course, atheists insist that people should be "good without God."

But why? If God does not exist, why be good?

Both empathy and practicality.

A normal, well-balanced human vicariously feels pain at the suffering of another, and therefore tends to avoid inflicting it.

Practically, being a nice guy keeps one in the good graces of other humans with whom one must live and work.

Karma is not a metaphysical process, to me; it's a material phenomenon, and it can be summed up in three words: assholes make enemies.

How do you put this philosophy into practice, PT? Of all people, I find this most ironic coming from you.

How have you sought to avoid becoming my enemy over the past three weeks?