Why be good?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Oh? To me, they are just login names and avatars...I can't confirm their identities. I'm not likely to meet any of them in person.

Feel free to PM me for my phone number. I will happily confirm my existence for you vocally. And if you give me ten or so minutes, I'll post a picture of me with my USAF Alert Zone line badge, and some close-ups of that line badge. I don't have my Class-A blouse handy with my ribbons and badge; when I returned to Texas I left that, as my most important possession, with my son, so that should anything happen to me, my son will have a memento of the old man's service.

1. Why should I believe anything that CD, Steel and Parkers (the boys) have said about their near-death experiences or speaking with others who had NDE's?

I did not claim to have an NDE. I have never lost brain activity to the point where the docs thought I was dead ('course, they never saw me on a Friday night back in the day). I've never been close to fatally injured.

What I said is that as a firefighter in the Air Force, there have been a couple of times where I was wondering if I might see another day. I linked you to a report of the first incident of that sort in my service career, but that wasn't the first time in my life I've feared for my life, nor the last. I can send you a pic of my left ear, which got bitten off in a fight with a guy who thought I was fucking his old lady and tried to kill me with his hands and some copper conduit. I can perhaps find a newspaper report of one of the two times that I was the victim of an armed robbery.

But I have never had a near-death experience in the sense that that acronym is normally used.

2. Why should I believe the people who claim to have met the boys? They are friends and BIASED.

Many of the servicemen I served with were not my friends, but they would still attest to my service.

3. How do the people who have met the boys know with certainty that the boys are being truthful about their experiences?

They could read the newspapers. They could look up specific incidents and units on the Internet. I've busted a couple of guys online who claim to have been in combat with this or that unit. Such stuff is not hard to penetrate if you know what to look for.

5. I have been told repeatedly in this forum that eyewitness testimony is the weakest forum of testimony; yet, here we are...relying on the eyewitness testimony of the boys (and Kitty, too, here) that what they experienced and heard is true. Isn't that weak testimony?

No, at least one of the people you've mentioned -- namely, me -- has presented objective evidence of his claim, and in the process demonstrated to you exactly what would be handy to support your point. The fact that you're avoiding that point doesn't speak well to your integrity.

So, you see, objections that are raised about the reliability of the gospels could be raised against the boys, but no one here doubts the latter. Why is the former any less credible?

Because our claims have evidence which is strong in proportion to the claim, while yours has no evidence at all, even though the claim is simply, and literally, incredible.

Thank you, Parkers. Discusson is much more persuasive than simply hurling foul language at me.

Because unlike our experiences, they aren't verifiable.

What do you have in mind when you say "verifiable"?

And how could any member of this forum verify the experiences that any of you three had?[/quote]

I've already told you. Aren't you reading what I write?

Agreed. That would add credibility (for the record, I do not doubt your service record). But would that help us to know what was in CD's mind when he was facing death? Would that prove beyond a doubt that you never thought of God when you personally were confronted with death? Would that eliminate the possibility that the marines with whom Mike spoke weren't simply trying to maintain their "tough guy" image?

Well, that's setting the bar for evidence too high, and that's a bar you cannot meet yourself. How do you know the Apostles weren't spinning bullshit stories in order to protect their cash cow, and only claiming that Jesus was divine?

You don't. So either hold yourself to that same standard, or abandon this line of argument. Choose now.

All we really have is your testimony (oral if given to friends in person and written in your service records and this forum) about what you saw, heard and experienced personally and from others.

Your claim to be telling the truth is strong...just as strong as the same claim made by the Apostle John at the end of his service record.

Actually, you have archives and independent witnesses to interview, unlike any Gospel writer you could care to mention.

But we're not talking about Jesus' claim to be the Son of God. Not yet, anyway. We're only trying to establish the claim of reliability for the service records of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

... and at this point, you have no independent verification, unlike our military service records and unit-member interviews.

I could eat a bowl of alphabet soup and shit a better argument than this one that you're mounting, Pigeon.

You are truly a man of many talents, Parkers.

You ain't seen the half of it. Wait until you ignore my points again.