(June 20, 2015 at 11:11 pm)Pyrrho Wrote:(June 20, 2015 at 10:20 pm)whateverist Wrote: Funny how that goes. From my side it looks as though Christians obsessed with heaven and hell in the 'next' life are the ones who couldn't care less about the great gift of life. If 'heaven' or 'hell' mean anything at all, they must refer to something you experience in the moment. The idea of an eternal heaven or hell which comes later just seems infantile.
Quote:It is funny how that goes. Here is an interesting set of verses that seem to indicate that it is not a matter of people choosing, but of God choosing who goes to heaven and who does not:
"For many are called, but few [are] chosen." (Matthew 22:14, KJV)
When one is called one must give an answer, those who answer to the affirmative one is chosen.
Quote:"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5 NIV)
This has nothing to do with heaven or hell, God was telling Jeremiah of the plan He wanted for his life, as long as he accepted.
Quote:"As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven." (Mark 4:10-12, NASB)
Instead of just copying from a website that is biased to a certain point of view, you should have read the verses that followed verse 12 and you would have found Jesus was using them to help explain the parable to those who were with Him, even they did not understand the parable of the sower. He did not mean they wouldn't latter have a chance to be saved unless they continued with their eyes and ears closed to the truth.
Quote:"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, ..." (Eph. 1:3-5, NASB)
To be holy and blameless before God can only happen by choosing Christ the Son, the choice is ours, as I said above we are chosen when we choose Christ. If you will take close notice to the bold wording, you will see it's through Christ which we choose according to John 3:16. Those that choose Christ are predestined to be accepted as holy and blameless before the Father.
Quote:"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." (Rom. 8:28-30, NASB)
You really seem to have trouble with see what the wording of scriptures say, you seem to fit the first verse you posted or you're just posting what others say without even reading the passages, both will have the same result. Again the bold shows what's happened or happening, people have to choose to love God. His purpose was always to give man the chance at redemption. He foreknew doesn't mean predestined. We who choose are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. These whom He predestined are those predestined to be in the image of Christ after we choose Christ.
Quote:"... but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; ..." (1Co. 2:7, NASB)
God's wisdom was predestined to be a mystery, that later will be revealed to those who choose Christ, no one is being predestined.
Quote:"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." (Act. 4:27-28, NASB)
The destined occurrence was the death of Christ, Herod, Pilate and the others were known by God to harden their hearts against Christ, so He used them for His purpose.
Quote:Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. (Psa. 139:16, NASB)
This has nothing to do with predestined salvation and the days that were ordained to him were recorded because God knew when he would die before he was born.
Quote:"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." (Romans 9:15-18, NIV)
This means only this, God knows those who will harden themselves against Him. His foreknowledge allows Him to use people for His purpose without endangering them to an eternal punishment.
Quote:"The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go." (Exodus 4:21, NIV)
Using only part of the story profits no one. As I said above God knew Pharaoh would harden his heart towards God, God hardened Pharaoh's heart o not let His people to go in order to show Egypt the power He has. Pharaoh was considered a living god by the Egyptians and God was going to show them that Pharaoh had no power to compete with God's.
Quote:"For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:8-10, NKJ)
These verses show we have choice in our salvation and it shows God chose the works beforehand that those who chose Christ would be doing.
Quote:"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48, ESV)
This simply means that no one who refuses Christ will be appointed to eternal life. This is about foreknowledge of those who chose.
John 3:16 destroys all the notions of predestination.
Courtesy of:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination
Quote:There have been many serious Christians who have believed that it is not a matter that people decide, but it is a matter that God decides, and they have some Biblical basis for their opinion.
Of course, if he wishes to argue about it, he should go seek out Christians who believe it. In my opinion, the whole question is a good deal of nonsense, since there is no heaven, no god, etc.
He also does not answer the question of the opening post, why god made the earth at all. But saying irrelevant crap is what Christians often do, so this should not surprise anyone.
As I have shown the predestinationist haven't a foot to stand on, no verses support that belief and besides John 3:16 there are many verses that show we can only gain salvation through choosing Christ for who He is.
You say you have an opinion, then you make an absolute claim, that's trying to have your cake and it it too.
The only crap I've seen here is you using the opinions of others as your own, you copied this stuff and did no research, again I'll refer you back to the first verse you posted, that shows you have chosen to be one of those that would rather be deaf and dumb.
As for why God created the world and the entire universe, if you had ever troubled yourself to learn by reading the Bible you would know God did it for His pleasure. And, He being the only One who could accomplish the creation why shouldn't He create what pleases Him.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.