Progressive Christianity

[Pyrrho]

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thanks for all the effort you took in this reply - I'm building a list of suggested readings from you all, and I truly appreciate it.  I agree, many stories in the bible are horrific. Addressing them as myth does not lessen the awful messages in some of them.  Some are nothing other than great examples of people being assholes and blaming their behavior on the supernatural (sound familiar, lol).  I find your take-away from the story of Abraham and Isaac interesting. I don't see the text reading Abraham as virtuous for being willing to sacrifice his son - although I admit that is a common conservative Christian spin.  I see a human giving in to sacrificial violence, and a text that was likely rewritten a bit, to portray God as changing it's mind or perhaps not wanting the sacrifice to begin with.

Abraham "gives in" to sacrificial violence because god asks for it.  According to the story (Genesis 22), sacrificing Isaac is not Abraham's idea; it is god's idea.  (The wording of verse 2 suggests that Abraham is not otherwise wanting to do this at all.)  God does not punish Abraham for being willing to kill his son due to god commanding it, and god later rewards Abraham for his obedience.

As for it being the conservative Christian take on this, it is also the majority Jewish interpretation of the story.  It is a deviant interpretation to say something contrary to this.

And the Bible literally says god is pleased with Abraham for being willing to kill his son.  Genesis 22:

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.


The only way to interpret the story another way is to reject what it actually says.

  I view the bible as a collection of writing that slowly arc toward a nonviolent understanding of God.

I very much disagree with that.  Hellfire and eternal torment is not the direction of nonviolence.

  I agree that not every myth contains some great truth.  We'll have to disagree about Jesus and his enemies, as you phrase it. I do not see that the texts bear out anything having to do with hell.

There are quite a few verses about hell.  Here are some of them:

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2 Thessalonians 1:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Jude 1:

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Revelation14:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Revelation 20:

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Revelation 21:

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

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In particular, consider Revelation 20:

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


There eternal torment is quite explicit.  The only way to not see that is to not read it.

We'll also have to disagree about who wants the sacrifice.

The Bible is explicit on who wants the sacrifice in the first two verses of Genesis 22:


1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.


The only way to not see that is to not read it.

You are not merely rejecting a literal reading, you are rejecting reading it at all.  Real or mythical, it is God who commands the sacrifice in the story.

Of course most of the bible reads like it is God demanding the sacrifice from people in the OT - that was their belief system.

As seen above, the story explicitly states that God is demanding the sacrifice.  One's belief system has nothing to do with it.  According to the story, God commands Abraham to kill Isaac.  Whether it is taken as an event literally happening, or as just a myth, is irrelevant to whose idea it is in the story to kill Isaac.  Whether it is taken literally or as a myth, the story says that God is pleased that Abraham was willing to do as God told him.

I do not agree that the new testament carries that through, however.  I will definitely agree that is the predominant interpretive view in American Christianity.  Although it's a little hard to discern if some of your comments were intended to be snarky, I choose to believe you are offering to help, and I hope that my gratitude comes through in my response.

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I am certainly not trying to tell you that you ought to view the Bible as the inspired word of god, nor am I trying to get you to believe the stories in it literally occurred.  I am inclined to agree with you that it is basically myth.  But even as myth, the text tells the story.

That you want it to tell another story is irrelevant to the story it tells.