Atheism = Desperation

[WinterHold]

No, I was saying there is good evidence computer software was made by humans because we have experience of it being made by humans, and no examples of it occuring without humans.

Whether or not there are "other universes" has no bearing on what created them, if anything. The size and complexity of something is not an indication of design. Design can only be contrasted with non-design.

Who designed god? And who designed god's designer? It's just moving the question.

So all you are now saying is that you assume god exists. Atheists just ask for evidence. Sure, if that is the case, then there is no more discussion to be had. As far as I'm concerned, untestable unfalsifiable claims are worthless.

If you want to be scientific, you assume as little as possible. You assume that what you experience is in some way real, that you can learn something about the reality, and that there are certain rules of logic. After that, you only base conclusions on evidence, observation and reasoning.

Not everyone wants to be scientific though, and that's up to them.

I understand your point.

But I think we both already agree that an instance of a design MUST work within the context of the design. And to each instance its scope.

In other words : our human brains can only think of things as being created, because we work in the context of a creation (i.e the universe).
God is above the design of the universe according to my understanding.

Being in a different scope, it's totally possible that he wasn't created nor designed himself ; we only understand things this way because the scope we're at dictates our heads to work this way. That's why in Islamic philosophy, once we enter "the design of the afterlife", we will finally see what god is.

miniboes


What mainly makes me believe in the Quran, is the comparison between the theory and what came in the book itself. That's the main reason that makes me choose it as a faith.

Well, science alone didn't provide the evidence ; though the steps -or the conditions- that were around during the time of the big bang especially the nothingness or the void, then the collision, along with the existence of chemicals in that void ; are all mentioned in the Quran : LITERALLY.

One thing that makes me wonder : if one fact slipped by accidentally, why would the others be present too ?

Here's the stuff from the Quran..you compare and tell me :

( 30 ) Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

The joint entity refers to the elements during collision, yet the separation refers to the "bang".

( 11 ) Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."

The smoke refers to the existence of chemicals in the void called "heavens". Smoke is no more than elements in a gas state.

The thing is, I cannot ignore that 1400 years ago, somebody said this.

The expansion of the universe is also mentioned :

( 47 ) And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander. page 522

That's why I mainly believe the Quran did provide an evidence of god..
I would sure try to get the book ; I didn't hear of the writer before.

What do you think ? it's the first time I ever discuss these verses..

downbeatplumb

I consider the Quran to be a valid evidence.

Bad Wolf

I mainly speak about my own approach here.
The goal & the blueprint.

If there's a certain goal to be achieved & a blueprint that enforces constant behavior/response if some conditions are triggered, then it's a design for me.

A building design is a design for example,because it has a goal of allowing people to live safely inside, it enforces a constant behavior of "protecting the residents" from the outer atmosphere one a person goes from the door -it enforced that behavior/service via the usage of concrete to cover up the surroundings of the resident.

robvalue

and here's where I always say : the Quran did provide something unique for the reader.
to me at least ; it makes me wonder.

Stimbo

That's why they call it "faith".
Though, still the chronological speech given by god in the quran raise up lots of questions..

LostLocke

A random universe would never & impossible too to come into existence.
That would be my answer.

FifthElement

I enjoyed that video a lot
Actually I thought it was complex enough ! what if I asked a human for example, to control each & every bit along that descent ? and keep a record of it ? god does that..

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The rest of the guys who commented : i will comment back but I need some time