Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: April 29, 2024, 6:10 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Proof of God
RE: Proof of God
(April 22, 2015 at 1:44 pm)Harris Wrote:
(April 21, 2015 at 1:07 pm)Surgenator Wrote: The fifth way is Aquinus trying to sneak intelligence into natural laws. The natural laws are a byproduct of symmetries. For example, translation invariance (this spot over here is no different than that spot over there) -> conservation of momentum. No intelligence is required for the conservation laws to exist.

The concept of quantitative conservation laws, such as those of mass and energy, is of much later origin. Even prior to the development of modern mechanics, symmetries were employed to solve some dynamical problems. The relation between conserved quantities and symmetries has come to play a central role in the physical sciences. Conservation laws may reflect as much about the way the human mind organizes the phenomena of the world as they do about physical reality itself.

In fact, there are principles of lawfulness and of causality, which reflect basic and universal characteristics of human thought and understanding. This suggests that our various conservation laws may be rooted as much in the human mind as they are in any external reality.

Why would it matter when human beings discovered the relationship between symmetry and conservation? The direct-consequential relationship would still exist prior to humans discovering it. So Aquinas arguing that intelligence is required to explain these laws is him arguing from ignorance.

Also, Aquinas argues that physical laws are inherent to the reality itself. The admission that physical laws could be a byproduct of the human mind organization undermines Aquinas's argument further.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Proof of God - by Harris - February 27, 2015 at 1:57 am
RE: Proof of God - by Exian - February 27, 2015 at 2:00 am
RE: Proof of God - by Jacob(smooth) - February 27, 2015 at 2:20 am
RE: Proof of God - by Ravenshire - March 14, 2015 at 4:46 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - March 18, 2015 at 11:09 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - March 18, 2015 at 1:04 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Mister Agenda - March 18, 2015 at 1:27 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Ravenshire - March 20, 2015 at 6:42 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - February 27, 2015 at 2:16 am
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - April 21, 2015 at 12:23 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Surgenator - April 21, 2015 at 1:07 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 22, 2015 at 1:44 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Surgenator - April 22, 2015 at 3:41 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 22, 2015 at 4:45 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 25, 2015 at 2:38 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 25, 2015 at 3:37 am
RE: Proof of God - by Mudhammam - April 25, 2015 at 4:15 am
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - April 25, 2015 at 10:06 am
RE: Proof of God - by Mudhammam - April 25, 2015 at 1:39 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 27, 2015 at 6:57 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 27, 2015 at 9:09 am
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - May 2, 2015 at 8:56 am
RE: Proof of God - by downbeatplumb - May 2, 2015 at 11:34 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - May 3, 2015 at 1:40 am
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - May 2, 2015 at 10:56 am
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - May 3, 2015 at 11:54 am
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 25, 2015 at 4:34 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - April 22, 2015 at 5:16 pm
RE: Proof of God - by downbeatplumb - April 24, 2015 at 1:48 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - April 24, 2015 at 8:34 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - April 24, 2015 at 8:46 am
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - April 24, 2015 at 9:14 am
RE: Proof of God - by Chas - April 24, 2015 at 8:50 am
RE: Proof of God - by Surgenator - April 24, 2015 at 12:36 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - February 27, 2015 at 2:38 am
RE: Proof of God - by Exian - February 27, 2015 at 2:46 am
RE: Proof of God - by JesusHChrist - February 27, 2015 at 2:44 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - February 27, 2015 at 2:50 am
RE: Proof of God - by Aoi Magi - February 27, 2015 at 2:55 am
RE: Proof of God - by Exian - February 27, 2015 at 3:07 am
RE: Proof of God - by Thumpalumpacus - February 27, 2015 at 3:13 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - February 27, 2015 at 3:56 am
RE: Proof of God - by Fidel_Castronaut - February 27, 2015 at 4:14 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - February 27, 2015 at 4:23 am
RE: Proof of God - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 27, 2015 at 6:26 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - February 27, 2015 at 6:39 am
RE: Proof of God - by Homeless Nutter - February 27, 2015 at 6:53 am
RE: Proof of God - by Dystopia - February 27, 2015 at 7:20 am
RE: Proof of God - by paulpablo - February 27, 2015 at 7:45 am
RE: Proof of God - by Jacob(smooth) - February 27, 2015 at 8:14 am
RE: Proof of God - by Ben Davis - February 27, 2015 at 8:57 am
RE: Proof of God - by Brian37 - February 27, 2015 at 9:09 am
RE: Proof of God - by Norman Humann - February 27, 2015 at 10:49 am
RE: Proof of God - by Esquilax - February 27, 2015 at 11:05 am
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - February 27, 2015 at 8:59 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - February 27, 2015 at 9:55 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Esquilax - February 27, 2015 at 10:20 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - March 3, 2015 at 9:50 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - March 3, 2015 at 10:00 am
RE: Proof of God - by Fidel_Castronaut - March 3, 2015 at 4:07 pm
RE: Proof of God - by TheRealJoeFish - March 3, 2015 at 10:33 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - March 3, 2015 at 10:33 am
RE: Proof of God - by Ben Davis - March 3, 2015 at 11:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by Thumpalumpacus - March 3, 2015 at 12:19 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Esquilax - March 3, 2015 at 12:36 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - March 10, 2015 at 7:39 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - March 10, 2015 at 8:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - March 14, 2015 at 2:36 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - March 14, 2015 at 5:38 am
RE: Proof of God - by downbeatplumb - March 3, 2015 at 2:03 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Fidel_Castronaut - March 4, 2015 at 6:19 am
RE: Proof of God - by paulpablo - March 14, 2015 at 3:04 am
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - March 14, 2015 at 8:45 am
RE: Proof of God - by abaris - March 14, 2015 at 9:37 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - February 27, 2015 at 3:25 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Minimalist - February 27, 2015 at 9:58 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Homeless Nutter - February 28, 2015 at 7:17 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - February 28, 2015 at 9:33 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 3, 2015 at 9:59 am
RE: Proof of God - by FatAndFaithless - March 3, 2015 at 10:21 am
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - March 3, 2015 at 11:53 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 3, 2015 at 10:33 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 3, 2015 at 12:00 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - March 3, 2015 at 12:03 pm
RE: Proof of God - by The Valkyrie - March 3, 2015 at 2:04 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Exian - March 3, 2015 at 5:04 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 3, 2015 at 5:36 pm
RE: Proof of God - by ManMachine - March 3, 2015 at 5:56 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - March 3, 2015 at 11:16 pm
RE: Proof of God - by ManMachine - March 4, 2015 at 7:37 am
RE: Proof of God - by Ravenshire - March 4, 2015 at 1:14 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 4, 2015 at 3:46 am
RE: Proof of God - by Norman Humann - March 4, 2015 at 3:50 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 4, 2015 at 4:11 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 4, 2015 at 6:47 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - March 4, 2015 at 4:29 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Ben Davis - March 5, 2015 at 7:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - March 5, 2015 at 7:37 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 10, 2015 at 7:45 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 14, 2015 at 2:39 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - March 14, 2015 at 2:56 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 14, 2015 at 2:58 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 14, 2015 at 5:33 am
RE: Proof of God - by Sarcasm - March 16, 2015 at 7:42 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 18, 2015 at 11:13 am
RE: Proof of God - by Mudhammam - March 18, 2015 at 11:22 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 18, 2015 at 11:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by Ben Davis - March 18, 2015 at 11:37 am
RE: Proof of God - by Faith No More - March 18, 2015 at 11:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by Mudhammam - March 18, 2015 at 11:34 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 18, 2015 at 11:40 am
RE: Proof of God - by Ben Davis - March 18, 2015 at 11:41 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 18, 2015 at 11:44 am
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - March 18, 2015 at 12:47 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Thumpalumpacus - March 18, 2015 at 11:45 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 18, 2015 at 11:47 am
RE: Proof of God - by Thumpalumpacus - March 18, 2015 at 12:41 pm
RE: Proof of God - by downbeatplumb - March 18, 2015 at 1:30 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Faith No More - March 18, 2015 at 1:57 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - March 18, 2015 at 2:06 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Brian37 - March 18, 2015 at 2:28 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - March 18, 2015 at 8:14 pm
RE: Proof of God - by LastPoet - March 18, 2015 at 2:10 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - March 18, 2015 at 8:24 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - March 20, 2015 at 5:29 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - March 20, 2015 at 6:23 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - March 20, 2015 at 6:54 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - March 22, 2015 at 10:47 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - March 24, 2015 at 1:25 pm
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - March 24, 2015 at 1:57 pm
RE: Proof of God - by downbeatplumb - March 24, 2015 at 2:26 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - March 24, 2015 at 7:14 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 1, 2015 at 11:54 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 1, 2015 at 4:47 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 5, 2015 at 2:32 am
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - April 5, 2015 at 9:01 am
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - March 20, 2015 at 7:00 pm
Proof of God - by TubbyTubby - March 20, 2015 at 7:20 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Homeless Nutter - March 22, 2015 at 11:04 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Norman Humann - March 24, 2015 at 1:54 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 24, 2015 at 2:55 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - March 24, 2015 at 10:31 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - March 24, 2015 at 7:09 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Brakeman - March 24, 2015 at 10:47 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Funcaldunkal - March 28, 2015 at 6:02 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 1, 2015 at 12:12 pm
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - April 4, 2015 at 8:49 pm
RE: Proof of God - by IATIA - April 4, 2015 at 10:06 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Foxaèr - April 5, 2015 at 2:44 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 5, 2015 at 3:05 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - April 5, 2015 at 4:50 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 5, 2015 at 8:21 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - April 5, 2015 at 10:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 5, 2015 at 7:21 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 6, 2015 at 5:50 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 6, 2015 at 5:54 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 5, 2015 at 4:37 am
RE: Proof of God - by Foxaèr - April 5, 2015 at 4:42 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 5, 2015 at 4:44 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - April 5, 2015 at 11:58 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 6, 2015 at 5:56 am
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - April 6, 2015 at 12:02 pm
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - April 6, 2015 at 6:02 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - April 6, 2015 at 6:44 pm
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - April 7, 2015 at 4:02 am
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 9, 2015 at 11:42 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 11, 2015 at 7:21 am
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 14, 2015 at 1:46 pm
RE: Proof of God - by I_am_not_mafia - April 7, 2015 at 3:41 am
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - April 7, 2015 at 12:18 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Fidel_Castronaut - April 7, 2015 at 1:52 pm
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - April 10, 2015 at 12:40 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 10, 2015 at 2:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - April 10, 2015 at 4:49 am
RE: Proof of God - by Zen Badger - April 10, 2015 at 10:47 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 11, 2015 at 2:41 am
RE: Proof of God - by henryp - April 14, 2015 at 5:50 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 14, 2015 at 7:18 pm
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - April 14, 2015 at 10:26 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 20, 2015 at 11:41 am
RE: Proof of God - by downbeatplumb - April 20, 2015 at 11:48 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - April 20, 2015 at 12:11 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 20, 2015 at 1:43 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - April 20, 2015 at 11:54 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 20, 2015 at 12:03 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Brian37 - April 22, 2015 at 4:55 pm
RE: Proof of God - by IATIA - April 23, 2015 at 7:41 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 23, 2015 at 9:08 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - April 24, 2015 at 6:57 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 24, 2015 at 7:44 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - April 24, 2015 at 10:40 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 24, 2015 at 8:38 am
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - April 24, 2015 at 10:33 am
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - April 24, 2015 at 11:46 am
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - April 24, 2015 at 12:07 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Foxaèr - April 25, 2015 at 2:42 am
RE: Proof of God - by downbeatplumb - April 25, 2015 at 3:02 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 25, 2015 at 6:18 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 25, 2015 at 7:45 am
RE: Proof of God - by Twisted - May 3, 2015 at 2:34 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - May 3, 2015 at 4:38 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - May 3, 2015 at 5:52 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - May 3, 2015 at 6:07 am
RE: Proof of God - by Edwardo Piet - May 3, 2015 at 6:23 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - May 3, 2015 at 1:23 pm
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - May 4, 2015 at 7:49 am
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - May 6, 2015 at 11:45 pm
RE: Proof of God - by IATIA - May 6, 2015 at 11:54 pm
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - May 8, 2015 at 2:21 pm
RE: Proof of God - by TheRealJoeFish - May 8, 2015 at 2:30 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - May 8, 2015 at 6:46 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - May 14, 2015 at 5:58 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - May 14, 2015 at 6:32 am
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - May 17, 2015 at 5:34 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - May 17, 2015 at 10:51 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - May 14, 2015 at 7:42 am
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - May 14, 2015 at 7:55 am
RE: Proof of God - by Hatshepsut - May 8, 2015 at 10:26 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - May 9, 2015 at 5:47 am
RE: Proof of God - by Mr.wizard - May 9, 2015 at 8:16 am
RE: Proof of God - by Hatshepsut - May 9, 2015 at 12:23 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - May 13, 2015 at 2:19 pm
RE: Proof of God - by TheRealJoeFish - May 13, 2015 at 2:41 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 13, 2015 at 3:03 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - May 13, 2015 at 3:37 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Esquilax - May 13, 2015 at 7:52 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 13, 2015 at 4:14 pm
RE: Proof of God - by TheRealJoeFish - May 13, 2015 at 6:18 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 13, 2015 at 9:24 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - May 14, 2015 at 9:42 am
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - May 13, 2015 at 5:38 pm
RE: Proof of God - by ignoramus - May 13, 2015 at 7:54 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - May 14, 2015 at 7:18 am
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 14, 2015 at 12:16 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Hatshepsut - May 15, 2015 at 10:26 am
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - May 15, 2015 at 11:09 am
RE: Proof of God - by Nope - May 16, 2015 at 3:48 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 15, 2015 at 11:52 am
RE: Proof of God - by Hatshepsut - May 15, 2015 at 1:56 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 15, 2015 at 1:58 pm
RE: Proof of God - by FatAndFaithless - May 15, 2015 at 2:00 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Hatshepsut - May 16, 2015 at 9:03 am
RE: Proof of God - by dyresand - May 15, 2015 at 8:34 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - May 16, 2015 at 2:06 pm
RE: Proof of God - by TheRealJoeFish - May 16, 2015 at 4:04 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 16, 2015 at 4:07 pm
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - May 16, 2015 at 9:05 am
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - May 17, 2015 at 7:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - May 17, 2015 at 7:34 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - May 21, 2015 at 2:26 pm
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - May 21, 2015 at 3:23 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 21, 2015 at 3:49 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - May 21, 2015 at 7:59 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - May 17, 2015 at 10:33 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - May 18, 2015 at 1:02 am
RE: Proof of God - by Minimalist - May 21, 2015 at 2:33 pm
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - May 21, 2015 at 2:39 pm
RE: Proof of God - by IATIA - May 21, 2015 at 8:24 pm

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  [Serious] Criticism of Aquinas' First Way or of the Proof of God from Motion. spirit-salamander 75 6842 May 3, 2021 at 12:18 pm
Last Post: Neo-Scholastic
  A 'proof' of God's existence - free will mrj 54 6318 August 9, 2020 at 10:25 am
Last Post: Sal
  Ed Feser's Aristotelian Proof of the Existence of God Dolorian 60 15149 October 28, 2014 at 9:42 am
Last Post: Brian37



Users browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)