(January 7, 2018 at 4:38 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:(January 3, 2018 at 8:20 pm)Dan Brooks Wrote: I was thinking about this this morning on the way to the job site. What Whateverist was saying, or asking. Is there any type of evidence that I think would count as adequate justification for his believing in God. And I had told him that I don't know what type of evidence would suffice for that.
But then I thought about it this way. If someone were to try to convince me that Santa Claus was real, and they took me to the mall at Christmas time and said, "See? Look over there on that big chair. It's Santa Claus!" That wouldn't do a single thing toward convincing me that Santa Claus is real. I already know he's fake. So since I'm already convinced in my mind that he isn't real, it wouldn't matter what kind of evidence were brought to me, or how much of it, it wouldn't convince me in the least. I would either laugh, feel sorry for them, or get annoyed.
So I'm thinking that trying to convince someone who doesn't believe in God that God is real is kind of like taking them to the mall at Christmas time to show them Santa Claus. If it's already in the person's mind that God isn't real, it really doesn't matter what evidence is shown, it won't convince you in the least. A completely neutral mind may be able to at least accept the possibility, but a mind already convinced otherwise is not going to be persuaded, just like I couldn't be persuaded about Santa Claus.
I don't know. What does anybody else think of this?
But I could be convinced that a god or god exist.
All it would require to convince me is testable, repeatable, falsifiable EVIDENCE, and valid and sound logic to support the claim.
My current disbelief is based 100% on those criteria not being met by any theist. I am opened to be convinced, but your OP has so many fallacious arguments, that it is laughable.
The 'watch maker' argument?! Seriously?
Well my OP was simply to point out that if something is, then it is not illogical to believe that something caused the thing that is, to be. And if you think it is illogical, can you tell me how? My OP wasn't supposed to be "proof" of God. It was simply an if then statement. If something is, then it is logical to assume that something else caused it, especially if we know that it wasn't there before. So if the universe were eternal, then there would be no reason to believe it had a cause. But if it had a beginning, which I think most people believe now, then it is not illogical to believe that it had a cause. And it is also not illogical to believe that that cause is an intelligent powerful Creator. That isn't the only possible conclusion, but it isn't an illogical conclusion to make.
IF God is the cause of the universe, and is therefore real, and that intelligent and powerful, would He not be able to see and hear you? Have you ever asked Him to reveal Himself to you? God is not like the gods of the myths with physical bodies etc. God is a spirit and is therefore invisible. So He isn't going to appear to your natural senses. He isn't going to knock on your door and say, "Hi, I'm God." God is spiritually seen and heard.
Here is an example from the Bible of someone who asked for testable, repeatable, falsifiable evidence, and what God did.
He started out with a lot of doubt about God, as it says here.
Judges 6:13
And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the Lord be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the Lord bring us up from Egypt? but now the Lord hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.
So even though he had heard of the miracles of God from the past, he had a hard time believing because he wasn't seeing those miracles himself.
Then he actually sees the angel of the LORD.
Judges 6:22
And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the Lord, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord God! for because I have seen an angel of the Lord face to face.
But he still needed more evidence, and more assurance. So he put God to the test.
Judges 6:36 And Gideon said unto God, If thou wilt save Israel by mine hand, as thou hast said, 37 behold, I will put a fleece of wool in the floor; and if the dew be on the fleece only, and it be dry upon all the earth beside, then shall I know that thou wilt save Israel by mine hand, as thou hast said. 38 And it was so: for he rose up early on the morrow, and thrust the fleece together, and wringed the dew out of the fleece, a bowl full of water. 39 And Gideon said unto God, Let not thine anger be hot against me, and I will speak but this once: let me prove, I pray thee, but this once with the fleece; let it now be dry only upon the fleece, and upon all the ground let there be dew. 40 And God did so that night: for it was dry upon the fleece only, and there was dew on all the ground.
So he tested God, with two specific requests, which could not have occurred naturally. And God passed the test.
Also, there was a king of Israel, Hezekiah, who did the same thing, tested God (although in a different way.)
He had gotten sick and was told that he was going to die. But he cried and prayed and asked to be healed. So God said He would heal him. But he wanted a sign that he would truly be fully healed. So this is what happened.
2 Kings 20:8 And Hezekiah said unto Isaiah, What shall be the sign that the Lord will heal me, and that I shall go up into the house of the Lord the third day? 9 And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the Lord, that the Lord will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees? 10 And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees. 11 And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the Lord: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.
And there are other examples as well.
There was much evidence of God in biblical times, even including people rising from the dead. But many people have a hard time believing those miracles happened, because they don't see them today. (Just like Gideon had a hard time believing, because he didn't see the miracles happening in his time that he had heard of from the past).
But there is one specific miracle that still happens every day. And I don't mean healings and stuff. Yes, God can and does do that but that's not what I mean. (And I don't mean He heals in the Benny Hinn type way. That guy is a liar and a thief, among other things. I hate the crap they have on tv that they call Christian. It's absolutely disgusting.)
But the miracle I'm talking about is when someone goes from being at enmity with God to being His child. This doesn't happen on our own. It really is a miracle.
The Bible tells us that we are spiritually dead until God makes us spiritually alive. I don't know if God would prove Himself to you if you tested Him in the way that Gideon and Hezekiah did. He is definitely able to, but He isn't obligated to.
But here is something you can do. You can ask Him, if He is real, that He would resurrect you from the dead. And I don't mean physical death, but spiritual death. That is, that you would go from being someone who doesn't know if God is even real, to being His child. If God is real, do you believe He could do something like that? I know He can, because He did it to me and many others. I grew up believing He was real, but I wasn't His child until later.
I believe only God can prove Himself. And if you were to ask Him to prove Himself by some external means, like saying, "If you're real, let lightning strike my house.", even if that did happen it could be explained by natural means somehow. But if He proves Himself by changing you from the inside, then you know it's real. Then you know God is real. Because it isn't a cognitive thing. It is a spiritual thing. You don't go from saying, "I don't think God is real", to saying, "I do think God is real". You go from not knowing God, to knowing God.
How you go from being spiritually dead (which means dead to God), to being spiritually alive, is by believing that Jesus Christ really is the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior, and that He was sinless and died on the cross to pay for the sins of everyone who would ever believe on Him, and that He really did rise from dead like He said He would. And you ask Him to save you personally, and personally believe that He will. Someone who is spiritually dead will think the notion of that is ridiculous. Like the Bible says,
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
So if you go from not believing in God, not believing on Jesus Christ to save you, thinking it's ridiculous, to wholeheartdly believing it, then that's a miracle that you don't have to read about in a book, because you experienced it yourself. Then you will go from not knowing God, to knowing God.
