Religion's affect outside of religion

[MTL]

Drich,

you said:
**********************************************************************************
"Proof according to good old google is:
1.evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement. "

"What you are describing is undeniable proof. "
**********************************************************************************
Ok Drich, I am sorry if this was unclear.

I am basically referring to Evidence, versus Proof.

To say "Undeniable Proof" is repeating yourself, a redundancy.
Like saying "Car Automobile"

If what is being presented is undeniable.....then it is "Proof".

If it is not undeniable....it is merely "Evidence". 

If you want me to believe in God, I will need Proof.  Not merely what you submit as Evidence.

If it makes you feel better, fine, call it undeniable proof,
or as I did, myself:  Incontrovertible Proof.

yes, that is what I'm asking for,
and I only ask for it because Theists ask Atheists to believe.

which brings me to my next point...


you said:
**********************************************************************************
"For me to believe in God, God need NOT provide you with undeniable proof. "
**********************************************************************************
Drich,

I was indicating that if Theists, in general, want Atheists to believe in God,
then the onus is upon Theists to provide Atheists with proof of God.

If you want to believe in God, yourself,
and you are not asking others to believe, as well,

...then no, of course I don't require that you provide me with proof
....or even evidence, for that matter.

Believe what you like.  I don't care.

I would think I made this distinction fairly clear when I acknowledged that
YOU may very well have had a personal experience of God,
and that I am prepared to allow for its legitimacy.


I am simply saying that your claims of a personal experience
are not sufficient proof to bring about my own belief in god.

And I think you knew that. 

You're the Theist who came to post in an Atheist forum, don't forget.

You accuse me of being self-centred and thinking the world revolves around me,
but you are the one who automatically assumes that I am asking you to justify your own beliefs to me,
and I am doing nothing of the sort.

I am saying that if a Theist wants an Atheist to believe,
then the Theist must provide the Atheist  with proof.

If you want to believe on your own and leave others alone,
then I don't care what you believe....or why you believe it.

You're the one making it all about you.


You said,

**********************************************************************************
" your presumption is that my experiences are only unique to me.  "

**********************************************************************************

Drich,

I didn't presume any such thing.  At all.

I don't care if 99.999% of the planet believes exactly what you believe,
and had the same experience you had.

Until I have proof, I don't accept your beliefs
as reason to believe, for myself.

But, once again, as long as Theists don't harass me to believe, too
or use THEIR beliefs to justify limiting MY OWN rights and freedoms,
then I don't give a rat's ass what you believe.

I've said the same thing to Muslims.

I've said that even if 100% of the Earth's population was to convert to Islam, including myself,
that, in and of itself,
still would not prove that Allah exists or that the Qu'ran is the only "right" religion.

Now, as to the rest of your post,
I have a lot to reply, with,
but I must do it a little later.

I will return.