Can I just say, and I'm just being honest...

[Shell B]

Oh I absolutely know what mindfulness is... I just think that everyone is just lucky when they do it right. I think that the only way for it to be a skill is for us to consciously think something but that's the opposite of mindfulness. Thinking is purely automatic.

Nope. Consciously thinking something is certainly not the opposite of mindfulness. Mindfulness is being aware of the present moment at its basest form. There is nothing in its definition about not purposely thinking something.

I get lost in a negative train of thought... I can notice that... but I can't stop the negative train merely by observing it. Either as I observe it the negative thoughts stop or they don't. And if I intervene with a conscious thought that's not mindfulness.

Intervening or not intervening is not the opposite of mindfulness. Judging the thoughts as negative or even being judgmental of the negativity is.

Mindfulness is indeed, observing thoughts without judgement. But that either happens or it doesn't. Being aware of my judgements is just being aware of them.

Yes, being aware of judgments is just being aware of them. Practice makes perfect.

TL;DR: we either unluckily observe a negative train of thought without judgement and it continues or we get lucky and it ends.

Sometimes it is luck. Sometimes it is practice.

I don't think there's anything to practice.

Tell that to the literally billions of people who do practice or have practiced mindfulness meditation.

We can't control our minds. When we think we control them we're mistaken.

You're not controlling your mind. You're learning to control your reactions to the natural nuances of your mind. Suffering doesn't come from negative thoughts. It comes from how we react to them.

And I know mindfulness is not about controlling our thoughts but instead about observing them but observing automatic thoughts is just observing automatic thoughts. We're wrong to ever take credit for any of our thoughts because there is no locus of control.

While you can certainly purposely think things and take credit for them, there are definitely automatic thoughts as well. No one who actually understands and practices mindfulness would say trying to control those has anything to do with it. It's more letting go of control.

Yes. And he doesn't believe we can control our thoughts either.

Nor do I.

I don't personally see how it's a skill that can be learned.

You practice observing thoughts, smells, events, etc. without judgment. It doesn't always work, but you practice and one day you'll notice it's cold outside without thinking how much it sucks or you think how much it sucks without thinking how miserable your thoughts are. Or you think all the "bad" things, but you don't react to it. You don't sigh, piss and moan or go on a tangent. You just grab your shovel and don't let that shit affect how you behave.

So to take your muddy puddle analogy... either those negative thoughts about the puddle come or they don't, and there is nothing we can do to prevent them coming.

I think I've covered this above.

And we either observe them when they come or we don't. And there's nothing we can do to force ourselves to observe them.

That's not true. I do it all the time. I practice observing my thoughts and not reacting to them.

Personally I think we automatically believe all our automatic thoughts and our own automatic narrative 100% of the time.

Then that will be true for you. I often believe my automatic thoughts too, but I have Pure-OCD, so that kind of comes with the territory.