Can I just say, and I'm just being honest...

[Edwardo Piet]

Nope. Consciously thinking something is certainly not the opposite of mindfulness. Mindfulness is being aware of the present moment at its basest form. There is nothing in its definition about not purposely thinking something.

Consciously purposely thinking thoughts rather than observing thoughts is the opposite of mindfulness.

When I'm thinking a thought, I'm supposed to observe it consciously rather than consciously think something else.

If I'm thinking a negative thought... viewing that thought non-judgementally is mindfulness. Consciously thinking in addition to that "Oh, I'm having a negative thought" is not mindfulness. We don't have to consciously additonally think that we're observing a thought consciously in order to observe it consciously.

That's all I meant. That conscious deliberate thinking isn't observing what we're already thinking mindfully.

Basically: Mindfully being aware of our automatic thoughts has to be as automatic as those thoughts themselves.

Intervening or not intervening is not the opposite of mindfulness. Judging the thoughts as negative or even being judgmental of the negativity is.

The negative thought itself is the judgement. We don't have thoughts and then judge whether they're good or bad... we have thoughts that are instrisically judgemental. We have negative and positive thoughts.

When we observe our thoughts consciously, their judgement of being positive or negative disappears. And I understand that that is mindfulness. But it ruins positive thoughts as much as it removes the negativity in negative thoughts.

And does it always work? Is it not possible to observe a judgemental thought whilst it still remains judgemental?

I'm sure there are many times when I have been aware of my negative and positive thoughts and they've still remained negative and positive.

So, I think it's illusory. I think the reason why we often think being aware of our judgements has changed our judgements is simply because our awareness itself is a change in our thinking so the judgement has changed because the thought has changed.

And above all, whether it occurs to us to observe our thoughts or not is entirely beyond our control.

Yes, being aware of judgments is just being aware of them. Practice makes perfect.

Why would I want to be aware of my judgements if it didn't achieve anything? If all it is is me being aware of them, it doesn't make them any less judgemental.

Sometimes it is luck. Sometimes it is practice.

In my experience being aware of my thoughts is a mixed bag. I only want to be aware of them when they're bad. But that happens automatically and I'm not sure the being aware of them has any effect at all. I think it just coincidences with my realization that I'm thinking negatively.

Tell that to the literally billions of people who do practice or have practiced mindfulness meditation.

Or think they have.

Does being aware of our judgements actually have any effect or is it a common illusion that makes mindfulness popular?

I mean, let's grant the premise that being aware of our judgements helps them disappear. There are still two problems:

1. Whether it occurs to us for us to observe our judgements or not is completely beyond our control
2. It works both ways. We have both judgements that make us miserable and judgements that uplift us. Observing our judgements takes away our good feelings as much as our bad.

You're not controlling your mind. You're learning to control your reactions to the natural nuances of your mind. Suffering doesn't come from negative thoughts. It comes from how we react to them.

A negative judgement creates a negative feeling. A negative thought creates a negative feeling. When we observe a negative judgement it can become a neutral judgement and no longer a negative feeling.

If we can't control our mind then we can't control our reactions to the natural nuances of our mind. The 'we' that supposedly does the controlling is our mind.

A negative thought is a thought that makes us suffer. I know what you're trying to say though. When we react negatively to our thoughts it makes us suffer. I'm saying that our reaction is just another thought that we can't control.

While you can certainly purposely think things and take credit for them, there are definitely automatic thoughts as well. No one who actually understands and practices mindfulness would say trying to control those has anything to do with it. It's more letting go of control.

Or rather, letting ago the effortful attempt to control. We have no control to let go of. I've known a while now that controlling my thoughts is a futile exercise. I'm like a sail boat. My mind drifts. Either I catch myself or I don't. Either I observe my judgements or I don't. It's been this way since I was born. The only difference is that up until a few years ago I believed I controlled my mind more and my mind strained in attempting to control itself when it could not.

Yes. And he doesn't believe we can control our thoughts either.

Nor do I.

Good

You practice observing thoughts, smells, events, etc. without judgment.

But those thoughts themselves are judgements. When I appear to be observing the judgements without judgement that's just me changing from observing an internal or external experience judgementally to observing an internal or external experience non-judgementally. If it happens it happens.

I can practice it in the sense that I can make it into a habit.... but it won't prevent judgements from coming. Thinking non-judgemental thoughts more often won't make me have judgemental thoughts any less. When they come they come. If I think there's anything I can do about it then that only makes my O.C.D. intensify in rebellion.

I don't think it actually achieves anything but intensify my O.C.D. further. I feel like there is a such thing as being too mindful. I think ignoring my thoughts causes me a great deal more pleasure and happiness than the years I spent paying attention to them.

It doesn't always work, but you practice and one day you'll notice it's cold outside without thinking how much it sucks or you think how much it sucks without thinking how miserable your thoughts are.

To me that's just the fact that sometimes we have a negative response, sometimes we have a positive response and sometimes we have a neutral response.

Or you think all the "bad" things, but you don't react to it. You don't sigh, piss and moan or go on a tangent. You just grab your shovel and don't let that shit affect how you behave.

Well how I express myself on the outside is different to how I feel on the inside.

Bad thoughts aren't bad thoughts unless they feel bad. If we seem to observe a bad thought and it doesn't feel bad then we're not observing a bad thought.

That's not true. I do it all the time. I practice observing my thoughts and not reacting to them.

Well it certainly seems that way to a lot of people. I'd say that's just observing a non-negative thought without reacting with a negative thought.

Our thoughts can make us feel good, bad or nothing at all. We can react to all three kinds with more thoughts that can make us feel good, bad or nothing at all.

Our thoughts are something that happen to us.

Then that will be true for you. I often believe my automatic thoughts too, but I have Pure-OCD, so that kind of comes with the territory.

All my compulsions are mental too. Ignoring my thoughts by distracting myself from them helps their frequency and intensity decrease. Being mindful of them just gives them attention and makes them grow more.

The less aware and mindful I am... the more carried away with negative emotions I can get... but it also makes me get more carried away with positive emotions. And in my experience I was far far more miserable when I didn't allow myself to get carried away. I felt empty for years.

I only want to be mindful when I am getting carried away with negative emotions. But that happens automatically and I can't determine when that will occur to me or not.

I might experiment with being aware of my thoughts more often. But it does almost immediately make me miserable through a lack of joy.

I wish I could find something in the whole thing. I tried for years. I don't see how observing judgements has any effect. My reactions to those judgements are just more judgements. The whole thing seems like trying to put the cart before the horse.

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Oh I absolutely know what mindfulness is... I just think that everyone is just lucky when they do it right. I think that the only way for it to be a skill is for us to consciously think something but that's the opposite of mindfulness. Thinking is purely automatic unless it's strained.

I get lost in a negative train of thought... I can notice that... but I can't stop the negative train merely by observing it. Either as I observe it the negative thoughts stop or they don't. And if I intervene with a conscious thought that's not mindfulness.

Mindfulness is indeed, observing thoughts without judgement. But that either happens or it doesn't. Being aware of my judgements is just being aware of them.

TL;DR: we either unluckily observe a negative train of thought without judgement and it continues or we get lucky and it ends.

Well for arguments sake say you were to count your breaths in meditation, the ideal situation would be to have never lost count because you only lose count when you get too drawn into a distraction such as a train of thought. So the ideal would be to have maintained awareness of your breath for the whole thing without getting sucked in to the passing thoughts, and 'clinging/attaching' to them. In practice it's not that easy and your mind will wander... you will lose count figuratively or literally if you actually are counting... but when that happens you just bring your focus back to your breath when you snap out of the train of thought. To dwell on that as the failure would be the only real failure, because that's getting dragged into another train of thought, but if you just carry on regardless of that interruption, then that's where the 'success' lies. So as long as you keep bringing your attention back to your breath no matter how many times you get sucked in to a distraction, then you can't 'fail'. And as with any skill, practice makes perfect so the more you meditate the better you get at it... the less times you'll 'lose count' because it develops your concentration and ability to let go... so things that once sucked you in, no longer do. That's why it's not really helpful to think of it in terms of success and failure... everyone's mind wanders... everyone loses count... but if you just carry on regardless of that, then the more you practice, the less that will happen in the future.

I think being more mindful is a habit I can develop that has both good and bad aspects (Or at least the illusion of it. I'm not sure being aware of one's thoughts actually has any effect on them). In my own experience my positive emotions outweigh my bad ones so allowing myself to wander and get carried away brings me more good than bad overall. I think one of the reasons I was depressed for so many years was I was too self-aware, lol. Being less mindful, ironically, seems to have helped me more than anything.

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I mean, I think even supposedly 'not getting carried away with our thoughts' is itself a form of getting carried away with them. When we decide to meditate that's because we've had a train of thought that has carried us into that decision to do that.

So, I guess, I could develop a very strong habit whereby I'm able to habitually be aware of myself at a very focused degree without getting distracted by other thoughts. I'm not sure that's a good thing. I think it's a habit we can break as much as a habit we can make. I think I had the habit of not letting myself get carried away for years. I'd thought the same thoughts over and over and they wouldn't drift. I was very very mindful of them all. And it was an absolute nightmare. The lack of positivity felt like negativity. I've never felt a deeper depression than emptiness. No worse feeling than a feeling of despair at the fact that I couldn't feel anything besides that despair at feeling nothing else.

It's thanks to our mind drifting that we have creativity.

To always let them drift while observing them? I think that would cause us more self-consciousness and anxiety than anything.

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Right I'm going out for a walk to the shops, it's quite a way.

While I'm doing so I'll practice being mindful of my thoughts. I think it's the perfect time because my thoughts drift more than ever when I'm walking. I am not sure it actually achieves what people think it does. It's fun to observe my thoughts sometimes but in my experience the very act of observing them kills their flow.

Anyways, I'm determined to try and see what people are talking about. I have spent years trying to understand.

I feel like I don't view my mind the way most people do. I think not experiencing the illusion of free will might be something to do with it.

I actually really like it when my thoughts drift most of the time. I call it daydreaming. It's not all bad. Being aware of the dream kind of spoils it.

Back later.