Can I just say, and I'm just being honest...

[Edwardo Piet]

P.S. This thread is unfortunate.  It had the potential to be an exciting intellectual adventure that encourages people to challenge their preconceptions. However, it seems that some posters are more interested in confirming their preconceptions; they don't seem to be interested in learning.

Teaching is important too though

I really really like you Kernel you're an intelligent and very nice guy... but I do sometimes get a "Everything is an opinion. Nothing is true outside mathematics. Let's all just be diplomatic." vibe from you. Some people are just flat out right and others are just flat out wrong and truth is objective and absolute. Isn't that what you find beautiful about mathematics? The fact that there is a right and wrong answer to math and it's not all "anything goes"? It has real truth in it, in a beautiful way. I feel the same is true about logical truths, and I personally believe all truth is ultimately logical and others certainly can be found to be wrong and yourself to be right via the path of logic. Proof by contradiction is one example. The whole reason that math has such power is because it is logical. Even empirical evidence and intuition works via inductive logic.

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Thus, IMO, they seem to be selectively using math: they use math that supports their position (while claiming that it isn't math), while ignoring/dismissing math that challenges their position.

That's apologists for ya. Some of them won't even accept that 0.999...=1 lol.