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Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism
#38
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism
(January 1, 2017 at 11:52 pm)Redoubtable Wrote:
(January 1, 2017 at 11:32 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote: What does eating meat on a specific day have anything to do with rejecting anyone? If rejecting God is the important criterion, why does the meat thing even matter?

When people believe this stuff it is scary indeed, but if one takes just a step back and looks at it objectively... it starts to look like just a bad joke.

This is how apologists often explain it. Christ gave the Church the power to "bind and loose" so when the Church institutes certain practices and imposes certain penalties, the faithful are morally obligated to obey. One of these practices is fasting on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday and refraining from eating meat on Ash Wednesday and every Friday of Lent. To deliberately eat meat on one of these prohibited days is considered a sin (it's not a sin if you honestly forgot) and a grave matter also, so a mortal sin as I've explained previously in this thread if the other conditions are met. It's considered a mortal sin simply because the Church says so. The Church could decide tomorrow that, actually, it's just a venial sin, or could discontinue the practice altogether. So apologists would say that it isn't just the physical act of eating meat on a prohibited day that is a grave sin, but the fact that you are brazenly disobeying the Church and by extension God. That is how they justify the gravity attached to an act that seems so trivial. 

To me this is almost like saying someone convicted of littering is to be punished in some obscenely harsh way because by littering they showed brazen disrespect for the law, and by extension they demonstrated betrayal of the nation by showing contempt for the law.

(January 1, 2017 at 10:18 pm)Astonished Wrote: Wait, so the fact that they pulled that whole unbaptized infant and limbo idea out of their ass doesn't bother anybody?


Well, the thing is I generally like to play the debate game by Catholic rules, it's the only terms that are understood and my criticisms not dismissed outright as claiming I don't understand Catholic teaching, which I do, very well. So in this case in Catholic thinking they don't believe they are "pulling it out of their ass" they call this a "development of doctrine" where that which was considered implicit in some way (even an obscure way) is made explicit. In practice, this is basically license to make nearly anything up if there is even some remote kernel in scripture or tradition that can conceivably in some universe justify it.

(January 1, 2017 at 10:12 pm)Jehanne Wrote: The Catholic Church has most definitively taught that unbaptized infants do not go to Heaven, which is life eternal:


And, just in case you need to hear about the Limbo of the Children from a Pope's mouth, here's Sixtus V:



http://iteadjmj.com/aborto/eng-prn.html

These are valuable quotes Jehanne, but I fear I'm already aware of the unbelievably frustrating and slithery answers from the Apologists:

In the case of the quote from Pope Sixtus they would say it is not authoritative because his statement does not conform to the criteria for Papal Infallibility laid down in Vatican I.

And in regards to the quote from Pope Zosimus they would argue that while indeed an infant without any sort of baptism would be denied entry to Heaven, they would posit the nebulous concept of "baptism of desire" (a concept traditionally applied to would-be converts to the Church who died prior to becoming a formal member through baptism) and say that there is the possibility that God assumes their desire to be baptized and so saves them in this way. It's such a whacky concept, but I've seen many Catholics take intellectual refuge in it on this subject. Since the Church has not formally denied the application of this concept of baptism of desire to infants Catholics still see some wiggle room to hope infants are saved, but I doubt either of the Popes you quoted would agree with it. 

Ah, just ask the Mormons to do it post-mortem. They might not even need you to ask, actually.
Religions were invented to impress and dupe illiterate, superstitious stone-age peasants. So in this modern, enlightened age of information, what's your excuse? Or are you saying with all your advantages, you were still tricked as easily as those early humans?

---

There is no better way to convey the least amount of information in the greatest amount of words than to try explaining your religious views.
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Messages In This Thread
Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Redoubtable - January 1, 2017 at 3:33 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by vorlon13 - January 1, 2017 at 3:54 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Catholic_Lady - January 1, 2017 at 5:24 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Redoubtable - January 1, 2017 at 5:36 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Jehanne - January 1, 2017 at 7:05 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Minimalist - January 1, 2017 at 5:25 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Catholic_Lady - January 1, 2017 at 5:57 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Redoubtable - January 1, 2017 at 6:11 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Catholic_Lady - January 1, 2017 at 6:22 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Redoubtable - January 1, 2017 at 6:57 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Catholic_Lady - January 1, 2017 at 7:14 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by chimp3 - January 1, 2017 at 8:02 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Catholic_Lady - January 1, 2017 at 8:19 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by chimp3 - January 1, 2017 at 8:21 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Astonished - January 1, 2017 at 8:23 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Jehanne - January 1, 2017 at 8:12 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Catholic_Lady - January 1, 2017 at 8:24 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by chimp3 - January 1, 2017 at 8:30 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Catholic_Lady - January 1, 2017 at 8:39 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by chimp3 - January 1, 2017 at 8:41 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Catholic_Lady - January 1, 2017 at 8:51 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by chimp3 - January 1, 2017 at 8:52 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Catholic_Lady - January 1, 2017 at 9:20 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Jehanne - January 1, 2017 at 9:56 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Redoubtable - January 1, 2017 at 9:34 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Jehanne - January 1, 2017 at 10:12 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Seraphina - January 1, 2017 at 6:54 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Redoubtable - January 1, 2017 at 7:05 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Jehanne - January 1, 2017 at 7:00 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Whateverist - January 1, 2017 at 7:00 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Astonished - January 1, 2017 at 9:57 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Astonished - January 1, 2017 at 10:18 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Jehanne - January 1, 2017 at 10:25 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Astonished - January 1, 2017 at 10:29 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Aoi Magi - January 1, 2017 at 11:32 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Astonished - January 1, 2017 at 11:38 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Redoubtable - January 1, 2017 at 11:52 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Astonished - January 2, 2017 at 12:39 am
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Jehanne - January 2, 2017 at 10:24 am
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Redoubtable - January 2, 2017 at 10:31 am
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Jehanne - January 2, 2017 at 11:02 am

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