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Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism
#39
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism
(January 1, 2017 at 11:52 pm)Redoubtable Wrote: [quote pid='1479327' dateline='1483323161']
http://iteadjmj.com/aborto/eng-prn.html

These are valuable quotes Jehanne, but I fear I'm already aware of the unbelievably frustrating and slithery answers from the Apologists:

In the case of the quote from Pope Sixtus they would say it is not authoritative because his statement does not conform to the criteria for Papal Infallibility laid down in Vatican I.

And in regards to the quote from Pope Zosimus they would argue that while indeed an infant without any sort of baptism would be denied entry to Heaven, they would posit the nebulous concept of "baptism of desire" (a concept traditionally applied to would-be converts to the Church who died prior to becoming a formal member through baptism) and say that there is the possibility that God assumes their desire to be baptized and so saves them in this way. It's such a whacky concept, but I've seen many Catholics take intellectual refuge in it on this subject. Since the Church has not formally denied the application of this concept of baptism of desire to infants Catholics still see some wiggle room to hope infants are saved, but I doubt either of the Popes you quoted would agree with it. 

Then these co-called apologists need to read the text of Vatican I:

Quote:The first condition of salvation is to maintain the rule of the true faith. And since that saying of our lord Jesus Christ, You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church [55] , cannot fail of its effect, the words spoken are confirmed by their consequences. For in the apostolic see the catholic religion has always been preserved unblemished, and sacred doctrine been held in honour. Since it is our earnest desire to be in no way separated from this faith and doctrine, we hope that we may deserve to remain in that one communion which the apostolic see preaches, for in it is the whole and true strength of the christian religion [56] .

Quote:for they knew very well that this see of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Saviour to the prince of his disciples: I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren [60] .

This whole concept is one of the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church, which, like the extraordinary Magisterium, is supposed to be infallible.  In this respect, Pope Sixtus did not have to be speaking (from the Chair) in an infallible manner; rather, he was a witness to the infallible teaching of the Church, in that he was simply reiterating what had been the "ancient and unchanging faith of the whole church":

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum20.htm

I have much better things to do with my time than playing these word games; I hope that you do too as well!
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
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Messages In This Thread
Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Redoubtable - January 1, 2017 at 3:33 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by vorlon13 - January 1, 2017 at 3:54 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Catholic_Lady - January 1, 2017 at 5:24 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Redoubtable - January 1, 2017 at 5:36 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Jehanne - January 1, 2017 at 7:05 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Minimalist - January 1, 2017 at 5:25 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Catholic_Lady - January 1, 2017 at 5:57 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Redoubtable - January 1, 2017 at 6:11 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Catholic_Lady - January 1, 2017 at 6:22 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Redoubtable - January 1, 2017 at 6:57 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Catholic_Lady - January 1, 2017 at 7:14 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by chimp3 - January 1, 2017 at 8:02 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Catholic_Lady - January 1, 2017 at 8:19 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by chimp3 - January 1, 2017 at 8:21 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Astonished - January 1, 2017 at 8:23 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Jehanne - January 1, 2017 at 8:12 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Catholic_Lady - January 1, 2017 at 8:24 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by chimp3 - January 1, 2017 at 8:30 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Catholic_Lady - January 1, 2017 at 8:39 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by chimp3 - January 1, 2017 at 8:41 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Catholic_Lady - January 1, 2017 at 8:51 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by chimp3 - January 1, 2017 at 8:52 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Catholic_Lady - January 1, 2017 at 9:20 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Jehanne - January 1, 2017 at 9:56 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Redoubtable - January 1, 2017 at 9:34 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Jehanne - January 1, 2017 at 10:12 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Seraphina - January 1, 2017 at 6:54 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Redoubtable - January 1, 2017 at 7:05 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Jehanne - January 1, 2017 at 7:00 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Whateverist - January 1, 2017 at 7:00 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Astonished - January 1, 2017 at 9:57 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Astonished - January 1, 2017 at 10:18 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Jehanne - January 1, 2017 at 10:25 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Astonished - January 1, 2017 at 10:29 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Aoi Magi - January 1, 2017 at 11:32 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Astonished - January 1, 2017 at 11:38 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Redoubtable - January 1, 2017 at 11:52 pm
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Astonished - January 2, 2017 at 12:39 am
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Jehanne - January 2, 2017 at 10:24 am
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Redoubtable - January 2, 2017 at 10:31 am
RE: Escaping Catholic Totalitarianism - by Jehanne - January 2, 2017 at 11:02 am

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