(May 1, 2018 at 4:37 am)Hammy Wrote: I have come up with a counterargument for this standard objective moral values argument for the existence of God that goes as follows:
Premise 1: Objective moral values exist.
Premise 2: If God does not exist then objective moral values do not exist.
Conclusion: Therefore God exists.
My argument against that argument is as follows:
Premise 1: The only rational reason to believe that God exists is to rationally believe that both objective moral values do exist and that God cannot exist without those objective moral values.
Premise 2: If the existence of objective moral values is the only rational reason to believe in God then without that reason it would be more parsimonious to not believe in God.
Premise 3. If all other relevant reasons are equal then it is more rational to be parsimonious.
Premise 4: But because there is no other rational reason to believe in God besides objective moral values then without that reason all relevant reasons are indeed equal.
Premise 5: It is more parsimonious to believe in objective moral values without the existence of God.
Conclusion 1: It is more rational to believe in objective moral values without the existence of God if the existence of God is not required for objective values to exist.
Premise 6: There is simply no reason to believe that the existence of objective moral values require God's existence.
Premise 7: Objective moral values do exist.
Final conclusion: It is more rational to not believe in God than to believe in God.
Note: I don't actually believe that objective moral values exist, as most atheists don't, but as far as I'm concerned this is a smackdown against the idea that if objective moral values exist then it's more rational to believe in God than disbelieve in God.
Also note that this argument relies on the premise that there are no other good reasons to believe in God... but my point here is that anytime any theist brings up the argument from objective morality as a way to prove God's existence it is now clear that that argument of theirs is absolutely useless unless they also have other arguments to support God's existence.
EDIT: I don't actually need Premise 2 at all but premise 2 makes the argument a lot clearer and more explicit, I think.
Hi Hammy,
I don't believe that your final conclusion follows. Even if the rest of it was correct, at best, you can't come to a general conclusion, apart from this instance. ie... You may be able to say, that in regards to objective moral values, in is more rational to not believe in God for objective morals. However this would be begging the question, as it is one of your principles.
As to the first conclusion, I would agree, that this is a counter-argumtent and not a defeater for the Moral argument. The main contention seems to in the premise 2 from the moral argument "If God does not exist then objective moral values do not exist." You are saying (correct me if I'm wrong), that if this is not true, then God is not necessary, and there is no need to postulate God. However with this, you are making a statement, and therefore need to defend that statement. It all comes down to what is necessary for objective moral values. Which I think would be interesting, since you state that you don't believe in objective morality.
Of course as you said, that most atheists don't believe in an objective morality, my experience, is that most atheists don't understand what is meant by objective morality, or the argument from morality. That it quickly turns into a question of epistemology which the argument is not about.
Also I agree, that you seem to have more premises than needed (I think you could make it into a simple syllogism), so perhaps a little parsimony here would be good!
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther