Can God love?

[possibletarian]

I did not say atheist, I was responding only to the OP, Jormungandr. I have said all along that she is loved, it was her that said she did not fell loved and I said her notion was untrue. You seem to have everything backwards, probably because all you want to do is interfere and derail a conversation, one that was not directed to you. This is another reason I want get into a drawn out argument with you.

I think you meant 'don't' not do ?

The bold by me is an old and tired argument by atheist that has no merit. When I ask atheist to do the same on claims they make about different things they always counter it's not necessary. It is a consensus that Odin and Thor are not real, those that know about them have relegated them to fantasy, so I have no obligation to disprove what is already widely accepted as nonexistent.

No really the positive claimant is the one with the burden of proof,  otherwise you would have to disprove Zeus, Hera, Allah, Odin or any of the other 8,000–12,000 gods* to make your claim of a true or only god valid.  I just go one further and add my scepticism to yours too.
*https://www.quora.com/How-many-gods-are-currently-worshipped-on-earth

Truth is truth and can be nothing other than what it is. Tell me if (the if is for your sake alone) God exists would you want Him to make you love Him, do you have a desire to be slaved into God's family.

Truth is surprisingly difficult to define, but the statement 'god exists' requires some substantial evidence none of which you can provide.

You are not very smart are you, I can't threaten you with something I have no control over, you may perceive it as such but that is only in your mind and holds no truth. To need to do something is not an "if" it is a certainty, please try to understand the difference between an "if' and a certainty. In a certainty that you do nothing or the wrong thing it does become your fault, I'm correct in what I say, you on the other hand are out to impress your atheist friends, a shallow venture IMO.

I didn't understand that at all 'if' you do something and another thing will certainly follow makes them entirely compatible when used together. In fact you said so at the same time as saying it isn't so.

Sin is a crime against God, just as murder is a crime against man, both deserve punishment. Found guilty of murder a man is punished, not just forgiven and let go. found guilty of sin a man is punished not just forgiven, a price has to be paid in both cases. Jesus paid the price for those who will accept Him as their savior and then God will forgive the sins. How about that for thought.

Why did Jesus have to pay the price though? why couldn't god (who can do anything) simply forgive, you have yet to provide a answer to that. If you don't know simply say that you don't know.  That a god would have to brutally sacrifice his son is stupid beyond belief, and how would god find the smell of burning flesh pleasing, i mean really !

You're like a broken record, you just repeat the same old trash even when it has been clearly spelled out for you. Usually the one who feels the guilt feels threatened even when no threat was intended or given. Sin has been explained here a thousand times or more and yet no atheist to my knowledge considers it to be right.

Well no they are valid questions, and given that you have explained sin a thousand times (you say) and still no atheist to your knowledge considers it right, isn't that a clue how silly it is.  Sure people do things wrong to each other, but so what ?

Good cherry picking job, almost. I know what he rest of my statement said and so will anyone else if they care to go read it to find the truth. I will explain again since you seem to have trouble understanding simple things. God the Son came and lived in the form of man as Jesus, preach and lived a sinless life, was crucified by man for crimes He did not commit, laid dead in a tomb and then His body was resurrected to eternal life. God broke the barrier down and it's man's responsibility to accept the actions God took on man's behalf. So the heavenly Father did remove the barrier that man could have never done. Many human fathers let barriers stand between them and their children, happens most often in divorces.

Yes we know what the bible storybook says, but does not answer my very simple question, why didn't god simply forgive us ?

Again being childish, grow up
we have no way to make things right between ourselves and our Creator, so God through His undivided love made a way possible for us

Fair enough again we are aware what your storybook says, but still does not answer my question it's only a repeating of your ingrained doctrine.

you refuse this gift it's your loss.

Yes, yes hellfire, worms, eternity.. we get it. We just have no reason to believe you.

That will not be a defense at your judgement, God says no one will come before me with that defense. Seeking God is a simple process, plainly laid out in the NT.

And more of the same...

Acceptance of a gift is not doing something, it's free, there is no free if you reject it and this is not a threat it is what God promises,

You used 'if' and it's very definitely a threat.

a statement of an intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other hostile action on someone in retribution for something done or not done.*
*https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/threat

if I'm right you're in trouble, if I'm not we are on equal ground. You think that hell is death, not hardly. people in hell will have eternal life also, they will live the punishment they establish for themselves in this life,

More of the same.....

yes you read it correctly, you are pronouncing your own punishment.

And again...

God just sends you to a place to live that punishment for eternity, the punishment you determined by the life you live.

Ang yet again.. are you going for some kind of record to see how many times you can mention punishment and hell in one paragraph or something ?  This is what happens with dogma and indoctrination, you don't even realise just how silly the concept is.

More childishness and you use if more than I do, but you do it to be derogatory,

Not at all, You have not shown any good reason to believe in the rather silly assertions you are making, very simple really.

I place it to show hope, a hope you seem to be careless in handling. By the way that is a positive statement I made, no if to it child, acceptance of Christ will open up to you a new world, in many ways. So far you have completely miss out on what this conversation was about, and I remember she said to Drich to stay on track, which you certainly haven't accomplished at all.

That would be fantastic, now if only you could show a good reason to believe that ?

You are not trying to find God nor His love and you want God to bow down to what you want,

What I want, proof you mean ?

You were never a Christian, if you had known God as I do you would have never ran away, a Christians knows God's love is not mysterious, unfathomable, unexplainable, we do have an understanding of God's love, it's even laid out in plain English in the NT. That was your problem you had head knowledge and never experienced God in your heart/soul. It's obvious you did not study the scriptures by the way you argue against God and His love.

Almost to the word the same drivel I would have come out with as a christian to an ex  and i would have meant it too.
Sadly that's all it is drivel.. I recognise more of me in you than you could imagine.

The pattern you believe you see exists only in your childish mind.

No I'm pretty sure you have very definite pattern along the lines of ..  

1) if you do this or that  (the if is to show hope)
2) it's your fault (you have a choice)  
3) you are going to suffer terribly (this could be the result of your choice) 

My answers are in red above

You don't realise just how funny that is do you ?
1) there is no hope if you reject
2) You have dilemma not a choice
  a) live with a god who burns animals and enjoys the smell, tells his followers to kill infants and children, and looks in contempt at those in hell that he created.  etc.
  b) live in hell away from god
3) again a dilemma not a choice.

  again with the hellfire!

Of coarse, the thing is you have missed the whole point of my first post, you are out to derail the conversation and nothing more.

No, I'm pretty sure i get it, you just don't get it's nonsense.

No that statement is a positive one and true at that. You have no real argument about this conversation only foolish child like nonsense.

Okay Mr believer in talking donkeys, Flying chariots, Talking serpents, men living in mammals for three days.. got ya  

Supernatural power. How is it you believe the animal that swallowed Jonah was a mammal, oh that's right you haven't bothered to read the story.

 


So what do you believe it was ?

God does do things a bit different but then He has to. Man in his state of sin can not look upon such a holy being, therefore one can't possibly see Him. God the Son came to live as a man named Jesus and was killed by man for all man's sin so man could re-enter an open relationship with God, He couldn't have shown it any clearer way. He finished it by rising from the dead and into eternal life so we could have hope in an eternal relationship with Him. As I explained before God does not give death threats,

Yes, but again why ? we know that you doctrine teaches this but why do you believe such silliness ?

even if you choose to reject Christ you will live forever, only it will be in the place you chose ans you'll suffer the punishment you made.

And hellfire again, it's become a welcome old friend in your posts

Prove the bold by me. No atheist has been able to for thousands of years, will you be the first. Prove the rest of your statement because God is definitely real and always has been,

Well okay (though we have already asked) prove it.
Until you can show that your ridiculous god exists, then i will stick to the default position of not being convinced just like i am equally as unconvinced of the thousands of other gods, unless of course you are suggesting that in order for this to be rational i would have to disprove they exists at all ?

If that is the case you have the same burden, to disprove all god's but for your own which has been shown you cannot.

so coming into belief involves coming to know Him who has existed for an eternity. God is not love because He is omnipotent, He is love because that is who He is.

Can you show me it's more than indoctrination. ?
Of course believing in any god means that you believe in that god, that's just silly and could just as easily apply to many other gods.

Knowing I exist does is no assurance she recognizes me.

Be a start though.. aye ?

Because I make my love clear doesn't mean she understands it. Man murdered Jesus not the Father, Christ volunteered to come and live and die as Jesus, He was not forced to do so.

Yes but again back to my original question .. why not simply forgive, it's really stupid to believe a god would send his son (who was himself..kinda maybe.. who knows)  to die horribly as a human, when a god who can do anything, can do,well... anything

No one is tossed into eternal torment that does not deserve to be there, each makes it clear they prefer not to live with God

Well this is where making it clear you exists would help.

so hell is the only place left, it's the place the lost choose and they decide their own punishment in the way they live this life. You see everyone punishment in hell will be different in type and intensity but it will be everlasting. 

Ahh hellfire your old friend again, why make hell a place at all ?
And again, why not simply forgive ?  

The positive statement is the same as giving truth. No there is a decision to be made in this world created by God with man corrupting the creation through his disobedience man was then left with the decision to correct the disobedience by acceptance of Jesus and His work for us. Man has forced himself into the position of needing to make this decision, not God. So there is no if, it is either or. God's love is realized the minute one accepts what Jesus did for mankind, just as the love I have for the lady is realized once she accepts my love. What Jesus did for mankind was absolutely love. To accept the free gift is not doing much as in an action, the gift contains all the work for forgiveness a work man can never do for himself. In a way it is conditional, that is the decision not the love of God. Man forced the condition He is in and can only correct it through Jesus and to do so is to simply accept what He did for you.

I'm not sure this is any different to anything you have said before  and adds nothing

You seem to have left out the more important part of my statement, any reason why other than you have no argument against it. Again no if in that positive statement, it is a fact one you seem oblivious to, that could be a dreadful thing .

And again hellfire our old buddy

Truth is never a threat, it is what it is, truth.

Again it is definitely a threat, in fact it's the very definition
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/threat

Can't you get it through your head that there is no threat other than the one you imagine. Those that see this choice as a threat IMO are afraid and feel it deep down.

Yes sure if you say so dude.

I only tell the truth of this situation, hell is a reality whether you want to believe it or not and it is a terrible reality man has made for himself. I just do not know how to make this any clearer. Would you rather I lied to you and tell you there is nothing to fear, that when you die everything will be alright even though you rejected Christ, to do that would prove Christians have no love for their fellow man. If someone knew a building was going to fall on me if I walked down a certain street tomorrow and did not tell me that would be nothing less than murder. However if they tell me and I still do walk that street and am killed by the falling building then the responsibility falls on me.

That's just stupid, in this case the same person who warns you is also the creator of the falling building, and created it with the express purpose of falling.  The person in this instance clearly exists and has clearly spoken to you if an unambiguous way it's actually a terrible example.

As for lying, no i don't believe you are lying, i recall when i believed this stuff too.  I simply no longer see enough evidence for me to believe it's true.

I believe we've pretty much established Thor and Odin are not real. Lost cause on this argument for you.

Oh it's not an argument at all, I have absolutely no reason, just like with your god to believe they exists.
You however ask others to provide evidence that your god does not exists, something you cannot do yourself for the thousands of gods out there, this despite claiming some spiritual enlightenment.

If that were true then it would be torture, however your understanding of hell doesn't seem to account for your unforgiven sin.  First of all no one will be able to see into hell, God says the gulf between hell and anywhere is so great it can never be crossed. Do you think a holy and loving God would allow those who made the choice to accept Jesus as their savior and believe that God will protect them in eternity, would allow anyone to see the suffering those in hell are putting themselves through, not hardly.

What has who see's it got to do with it ?

You also seem to think that hell is fire and brimstone, if it were then everyone's punishment would be equal and the scriptures tell us that there will be different levels of punishment. Scripture also tells us hell is a dark place, how could it be dark when there's a raging fire going on. Do you not think God explained hell in the way He did because that description is the only way man's mind could fathom the horrors of hell. God allowing you to determine your punishment in hell by the way you live this life is a sure way to insure each person suffers at a different level for the life they lived against Him.

22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth which I make will endure before Me,” declares the LORD, "So your offspring and your name will endure. 23 And it shall be from new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath, all mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the LORD. 24 “Then they will go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die and their fire will not be quenched; and they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.” —Isaiah 66:22-24

Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” —Revelation 14:9-11

And yet.. it looks awfully fiery !
And of course (true to your form) our old friend.. hellfire

 

Regurgitation would mean I have not digested scripture and though I have much to digest I have certainly digested enough to speak the truth about God and His truths about life. What I have been telling you about God's love is accepted through out all of Christianity, all denominations. You should believe because what I've said is true,

You believing it to be true does not make it so, i believe that you believe though.

of coarse the only way you will know this is to respond to Jesus. I can't and wouldn't make you believe and why, because God want force you to believe either, it's your decision as to whether you want to correct the situation by accepting God's free gift. God loves you enough to leave His glory and live and suffer as a man and then suffer greatly at the hand of man, suffer until it killed Him. He then rose up from the dead to prove to us that eternal life was part of the gift and all we need to do is say yes.

Yes, again we get this as a doctrine, but why not simply forgive ?

It's like this you decide your eternal destination not God and you decide it because as people we are living in sin that we made. God is willing to forgive that sin so completely it's like you had never sinned. Our sin is against God, against who He is, it is in reality rebellion against Him,

Great news if true, but why not simply forgive why all the convoluted nonsense?

yet He in all His grace is willing to separate us from our sin as far as the east is from the west.

That would have made sense on a flat earth.

Then there is living in a relationship with the creator of the universe, the One who can reveal all things to us, giving us eternal peace and eternal separation from sin to live an eternal life beyond our understanding. If these are not reasons enough then I guess I have nothing else to explain to you on this subject,

That would be really cool if in some way you could prove it was real, and not merely indoctrination

if you need more than these things you are wanting in a selfish way and must believe you have no needs. For me I need all that God is offering and will be grateful when I receive any of it.

Oh I have needs, I'm just not willing to believe in any gods that cannot prove they exist, despite claiming to be the the ultimate being.

Again this does not answer my question, despite being long and wordy.
 

I think you meant the italicized words. It can't be a threat when it is the truth and it is the truth regardless of what you want. I'm telling you what I know to be the truth because I know God to be real and who He says He is, it's as simple as that. I gave you reason enough to believe above and in that I did not mention hell

No you never mention hell, of course not

 

Nearly every time hell enters a discussion I'm having here an atheist brings it up first.

If it wasn't so silly a concept they wouldn't bring it up is my guess.

When I'm the one to bring up hell first it's to get someone's attention because I feel they are rejecting all the good about God and the love He has for them. Anyway I've given you the truth and it's now between you and God, if you so choose.

I knew we had to finish on that subject

PS: If you want to continue this conversation please pick out one subject to discuss, I really do not have the time right now to deal with multiple subjects and be involved in such long post, I will gladly answer to shorter post on single subjects.

There only seems to be one subject really, (at least between us)  that is the incompatibility between a claimed unproven god of love, who gives a free gift, but cannot do so without  resorting to a childish threat.
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