(October 16, 2018 at 9:18 am)SteveII Wrote:(October 15, 2018 at 9:04 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: And, as you well know, the fact that folks are credulous to the “supernatural” has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the truth of whether such causes exist at all, let alone whether or not such a cause is the most probable one for any given event. To think otherwise is begging the question. And, using prayer as “the context” (reasons) for determining “supernatural” as the cause of someone’s cancer disappearing is a post hoc ergo proctor hoc fallacy no matter how you attempt to twist your words. You have no sound, reliable methodology for distinguishing a rare medical phenomenon from a “miraculous” one, which renders the latter completely useless as an explanation.
It is only begging the question if I am making an argument for the existence of the supernatural by miracles that I can't be sure are miracles. That's not what I am doing. I am saying that given that I believe in the supernatural (for other reasons) and given the background information that such events do not happen with any regularity, it is reasonable to infer that miracle x after prayer y may be supernatural.
What was your original belief in the supernatural based on?
(October 16, 2018 at 9:18 am)SteveII Wrote:(October 15, 2018 at 9:04 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: At least you’re willing to admit that.
What do you mean by “greater reality”? Why would entities that exist as part of a greater reality be disqualified as “natural”? Can you describe the positive qualities of this reality that eliminate it from the category of, “natural”? How is it that our bodies exist in the natural world, and our souls can exist in the natural world, yet one can be detected but not the other? So many unanswered questions, Steve.
Natural is within this universe and made up of the material things the universe is made out of and obey a certain set of laws. The supernatural is not contingent on there even being a universe. If the universe failed to exist, God, angels, demons, whatever would still exist. This automatically creates the line you are looking for.
IMO, we are supernatural/natural hybrids. We rely on our bodies and the physical world to develop our minds (souls). God has said that that soul/mind will outlast this body and into a new body that will not die. We will still exist in a physical world (heaven as we call it).
That certainly is one way that you can define nature, but it's not the only way. If supernatural things obeyed normative laws like the inverse square law, I don't see why we would distinguish one form of regularity and order of effects from another form of regularity and order of effects, especially given that your earlier remarks were that the supernatural was what nature was not. If one is defining the supernatural as simply things which don't have a natural explanation and are not probable given what we know of natural law, that would seem to lead inescapably to an argument from ignorance. How do you determine that gravity is a consequence of things in this universe as opposed to merely an effect caused by supernatural forces existing outside this material world? (Indeed, some theists maintain that all natural phenomena are maintained by God. Who am I to argue otherwise?)