RE: God, Santa, and The Tooth Fairy
December 15, 2021 at 7:53 pm
(This post was last modified: December 15, 2021 at 8:03 pm by LadyForCamus.)
@Neo-Scholastic
I don’t think (and this is just me) that the objection is a claim: “it is impossible for immaterial things to exist.” I don’t really have a concrete objection to the possibility that things exist in reality beyond our ability to investigate. What I’m looking for is some justification, or way to show the the proposition “immaterial things/god can exist and do/does exist” is likely true. To be fair, that is the claim. How can that be done if god is exempt from the rules of methodological naturalism? How can it be shown that god is real in a way that is more substantive than a metaphysical guess or pre-supposition? You mentioned “Beauty.” I’d be interested in hearing more about that. I’d also be interested in hearing more about why you think the PSR justifies belief in god.
@Belaqua With regard to numbers; and please, keep in mind I’m a layman and a shitty mathematician who failed almost every math class I ever took, so take my opinion with a grain of salt; perhaps it is true that numbers exist on their own in an abstract, conceptual way, but only as tools to make sense of the material world. Would “2” still exist absent any minds to conceive of it? Would it exist absent a material world? If aliens came to earth tomorrow and asked us to explain the meaning of two, what would be the clearest way to do that? “Here’s a rock. Here’s another rock. Two rocks.” Numbers seem to me to be inextricably bound to a physical reality. Now, if I understand it correctly, the platonic god is described similarly; transcendent yet inextricably bound to, or woven into the physical reality. But how can that be shown? Simply pointing to the universe and declaring “god!” is insufficient, at least to my personal standard of credulity. How can theists be sure they’re doing anything more than simply guessing or pre-supposing without justification?
By the way, if I’m asking questions someone’s already answered in painstaking detail, I apologize in advance. Bun in the oven is killing me with sickness and fatigue, and I’m not at my best at the moment.
I don’t think (and this is just me) that the objection is a claim: “it is impossible for immaterial things to exist.” I don’t really have a concrete objection to the possibility that things exist in reality beyond our ability to investigate. What I’m looking for is some justification, or way to show the the proposition “immaterial things/god can exist and do/does exist” is likely true. To be fair, that is the claim. How can that be done if god is exempt from the rules of methodological naturalism? How can it be shown that god is real in a way that is more substantive than a metaphysical guess or pre-supposition? You mentioned “Beauty.” I’d be interested in hearing more about that. I’d also be interested in hearing more about why you think the PSR justifies belief in god.
@Belaqua With regard to numbers; and please, keep in mind I’m a layman and a shitty mathematician who failed almost every math class I ever took, so take my opinion with a grain of salt; perhaps it is true that numbers exist on their own in an abstract, conceptual way, but only as tools to make sense of the material world. Would “2” still exist absent any minds to conceive of it? Would it exist absent a material world? If aliens came to earth tomorrow and asked us to explain the meaning of two, what would be the clearest way to do that? “Here’s a rock. Here’s another rock. Two rocks.” Numbers seem to me to be inextricably bound to a physical reality. Now, if I understand it correctly, the platonic god is described similarly; transcendent yet inextricably bound to, or woven into the physical reality. But how can that be shown? Simply pointing to the universe and declaring “god!” is insufficient, at least to my personal standard of credulity. How can theists be sure they’re doing anything more than simply guessing or pre-supposing without justification?
By the way, if I’m asking questions someone’s already answered in painstaking detail, I apologize in advance. Bun in the oven is killing me with sickness and fatigue, and I’m not at my best at the moment.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
Wiser words were never spoken.
