Official Debate - Cinjin v Tackattack

[tackattack]

Here is another attempt at an official debate. I realize it's a little risqué to be moderator, but we're both adults here and really see no need to gum up the works.


Topic: Are Love and Fear compatible as described in the Bible?

Setup: 3 rounds
round 1 - opening statements (due 13th 0730 EST)
round 2 - rebuttals (due 20th 0730 EST)
round 3 - conclusion (due 27th 0730 EST)

with 24 hours from the due date before termination and notice required for extension via PM. After the debate closes that's it, we haven't asked for judges or mediators or audience participation, save that stuff for the debate comment thread.

Cinjin will take the side that Fear and Love are incompatible
Tackattack will take the position that Fear and Love are compatible

[tackattack]

I would like to start by thank Cinjin for the opportunity for this debate. As there are no word limits or reference rules, we’re attempting to keep this informally formal. I’m also going to attempt to keep my walls of text as brief as possible so on that note…
Opener-
In this debate I would like to clearly establish the fact that Love and Fear, as referenced in the Bible towards God, are compatible. This should start where any good debate starts with definitions. While there is rarely a good 1=1 transition from one language to another I believe modern definitions include the intent I’m trying to convey. From Webster’s online dictionary (1) to love is to hold dear, like or desire, thrive in, or feel affection for. To fear (2) is to have a reverential awe of. It could also be used to mean to be afraid or apprehensive of, which my opponent will undoubtedly try and sell.

1- Let me start by asking the audience a question could you ever desire something you are in awe of?

When something is awe inspiring it is impressive, remarkable and overwhelming by definition. It doesn’t necessarily have to be good or bad awe. Those are attributes we attach higher value to in the consumer world.

2- Let’s look at the opposite. Would you hold dear or desire something that is unimpressive and ordinary?

Possibly you could, but which is more valuable a shiny new $10,000 Rolex or a generic POS Wal-Mart $10 watch? Even if your $10 watch is more valuable to you, it’s not because it’s an ordinary watch. It would be because of some intrinsic values you’ve attached to it making it unique and dear to you.

3- There are various reasons to hold something in awe. The reason is based entirely on the attributes of the object in question. I am in awe of war and the holocaust. I am also in awe of the beauty in nature and the vastness of space. Both cause me to pause and take notice. War causes me anguish and to seek recompense, nature causes joy and a desire for more.

Clearly to love God and fear God are compatible if the object’s (God) attributes are positive. I realize that the assumption of the atheist is that God doesn’t exist or if the Abrahamic God were to exist he would be evil. My opinion is that God is good. Both opinions are bias as clearly you can both love an fear something regardless of your feeling about the object.

[Cinjin]

It has been said by Australian author, Alex Peterson, that there are really only two emotions in the physical universe; love and fear, and that all the other emotions are just the result of these two primary states of consciousness. This of course is only one school of thought and there are many other writers and self-proclaimed philosophers who can and do offer up equally valid ideas about the dynamics between love and fear. Regardless, I think it safe to say that most people when asked would deem love a positive force in the world and fear a negative force. It is my contention that the Bible specifically violates the natural antithesis of these emotions by demanding love of a being that you are also commanded to fear.

Deuteronomy 10:12
And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God.

Proverbs 23:17
Be thou in the fear of the LORD all the day long.

Psalm 147:11
The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him.

Matthew 10:28, Luke 12:5
Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This is just a few of the dozens of verses in the Bible that not only command fear, but speak of a god that revels in it. How can this be? How can a father demand fear of his child? After all, that is what the Bible claims of its god. That he is somehow a father to those who are his children. Supposedly, we’re asked to believe that a father would not only want his child to fear him, but also enjoy the fact that he fears him. Why?

Well, love and fear are both great motivators. Love being a powerful tool that can lead soldiers to lay down their lives for their comrades, mothers to sacrifice food for their children, and complete strangers to offer up organs to dying patients. But as powerful as love is, it does not have the selling power that fear has. Fear is louder, it spreads quicker, and it is far easier to attain than love. It can be easily used to exploit a reaction from nearly any group and it has often been used as the primary motivational edge for those who seek power over others.

When a person perceives a concept or an idea to be absolutely inevitable but never currently tangible it can be a considered an illusion. The creation of an unknown enemy, or a doubt, or a punishment is most often illusory and useful only to achieve an agenda. What better way to get immediate reaction and continued desired responses than to feed the illusion that one will suffer for eternity should they not accept an ultimatum poorly disguised as a free gift? Nothing about this concept is compatible with love … especially when you consider that the being demanding this impossibility is supposed to be a father.

I am, as many of you are, a father, and since the Bible clearly states that god is a father we must require ourselves to look at this in that light. In no way have I ever or will I ever want my son to fear me. Respect, yes, but respect is a result of admiration, trust, loyalty, and strength of character – all positive attributes that cannot be born of the negative. Fear does not breed trust or true loyalty and it certainly does not enhance strength of character.
The bible itself even backs me up on this concept when it contradicts itself in 1 John 4:18 ~ There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Ask yourself this: Do you want your child to fear you or do you want your child to love you? Never mind the religion you’ve been taught. Just answer it as a father. I believe it is dishonest to answer anything other than love. They are not compatible and to attempt to have both creates neurotic children, confused, ill-mannered and desperate for approval. Remind you of anyone? How often have we, the non-believers witnessed for ourselves the complete and total lack of “peace” that Christians claim to receive when surrendering their lives to such a horrific father figure?

It’s a lie. You cannot command someone to fear you and also love you unconditionally. My son once had a bad dream and he told his mother that he dreamed that his daddy had “an angry face” and it scared him. Even though I knew it was just a dream, this knowledge hurt me. It injured me to the point that I sat with him and assured him over and over that he would never have to be afraid of me. He of course already knew this and ended up reassuring me that he was fine.

If you want a father that delights in your fear of him … than Christians, by all means, you can have him … but don’t expect the rest of us with intelligence to respect such an ill-advised decision.

"The whole secret of existence is to have no fear. Never fear what will become of you, depend on no one.
Only the moment you reject all help are you freed." ~ Buddha

(Buddha knew it and was teaching it before Jesus even showed up)

[Cinjin]

When are we posting rebuttals?

[tackattack]

round 2 - rebuttals (due 20th 0730 EST

[tackattack]

My opponent here clearly attempts to treat love and fear as opposites. They are not, they are extreme emotions yes, but the opposite of each would be indifference not each other. He also ignores the only accurate definition that is applicable to this conversation. Webster has 4 definitions for fear. Two are archaic: frighten and feel fear in oneself. One is: to be afraid of; expect with alarm. The one applicable to a discussion of God is: to have a reverential awe of (fear God is even the example used). I will not deny that the Bible has many verses that require fear, it does. Last note on definitions, what do you think the origins of terrific are? Is something terrific bad, even in the common vernacular?

He also makes the generalization that love is good and fear is bad, which is incorrect. Is fearing for your life bad? Is loving an abusive spouse a good thing? The act of fearing and loving cannot have a positive or negative result by themselves unless you factor in the object of the fear/love.

I agree that love and fear are both great motivators. I also agree that historically abject fear has been prevalently used by those who seek power effectively.
My opponent then introduces the concept of eternal suffering. That’s not what this debate is about and I believe is a red herring. Although I will agree that avoiding an eternal suffering would make a powerful motivator using abject fear. Then my opponent speaks of a fatherly God concept. Using his own example he would want respect or reverence from his son. Not from his punishments but from his innate authority as his father. I too am a father and I do want my kids to fear me; not trembling and scared, but reverential and respectful of my authority.

Then he correctly quotes 1 John 4:18. Taken in context, 1 John 4:7-21 is about the differences in God’s love and ours. See where the verse says fear has torment. Human fear does have torment. Let’s take God out of the conversation for a second and talk about human love. Loving someone else introduces vulnerability, which terrifies some people. This verse is teaching about how to love properly, by accepting that vulnerability and overcoming the abject terror and fear. But are they incompatible?

Did anyone here grow up with an abusive parent? It would be safe to assume that you lived in love and fear of that person. Has anyone ever lived with an emotionally or physically abusive spouse? The same 2 emotions would apply. What about a parent whose child is a murderer? Would you, no could you, stop loving that child despite your fear of what he could do to you/others? Who here is a thrill seeker, ride any rollercoasters that scared your recently?

“the rest of us with intelligence…” Do I even need to point out this fallacy? This debate isn’t about religious belief, people's intelligence, atheism, hell or Christianity. It’s simply about whether 2 extreme emotions are compatible in any way. I believe I’ve addressed all my opponent’s points and look forward to reading his and our conclusion of this fun debate.

[Cinjin]

Awe yes (pun intended) the classic apologist’s rebuttal: “the Bible doesn’t mean what it says – except for of course when it does, and don’t worry – we’ll tell you when and where it means what it says. “ This is a tired old argument that only the desperate will cling to. Allow me to shoot it down first. If the word fear in the Bible really means awe, than why use the word awe?

Luke 5:26 NIV
Everyone was amazed and gave praise to God. They were filled with awe and said, "We have seen remarkable things today."

And if fear doesn’t mean fear than how do you explain the following verse (taken from the same author, of the same book, from the same version of the Bible):

Luke 12:5 NIV
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Hmmm… sounds to me like the author is referring to genuine real fear … not awe. Clearly, the authors of the Bible meant FEAR when they wrote the word FEAR and meant AWE when they wrote the word AWE. Perhaps if none of the authors ever used the word ‘awe’ than maybe, and that’s a BIG maybe, you might have a leg to stand on with this argument, but unfortunately you don’t and it’s dishonest to pretend that one is the other whenever it suits your agenda. But hey, the very nature of an apologist’s argument is dishonest because you can’t defend the Bible’s blatant contradictions without it. The truth is, the fact that Christians even attempt to sell the absurdity that the Bible isn’t asking you to fear their god, but only to be in awe of him is utterly insulting to one's intelligence. They must think that the rest of the world is completely stupid. There can be no doubt about it … Yahweh wants you to FEAR him… to be AFRAID.

Regardless, this debate is about the compatibility of love and fear, not love and awe, and if you read my opponents opening statements it would appear that there isn’t any real fear required in the Bible, so apparently there’s no debate here???
……..and yet, he continues to show how compatible they are. Hmmm.

Are there positive forms of fear? No. There are only useful forms. Fear for one’s life. Fear of losing a loved one. Fear of snakes may keep one from getting bitten by a poisonous viper but it is not born of anything positive. That fear that saved your life – let me guess … that’s not something you ‘d want to feel every day is it!?! It’s ridiculous to make that claim that love and fear are both positive and that they’re simply powerful emotions. That’s simply greasy sophistry to condone the disgusting integration of the two in the Bible. Can a child love an abusive parent? Yes, I already said that, but what kind of children do you get? Neurotic, psychologically damage goods.

Love and Fear are opposites and they are not compatible. My son respects me and knows that I dish out consequences for undesired actions. I guarantee that boy does not fear me and I never want him to. I want him to be the man I know he can be. I want him to be better than me. I want him to show the world that love, strength and truth destroy fear. One day he’ll be old enough to do whatever he wants and when that day arrives I want him to respect me because he loves me so much that he doesn’t want me to be disappointed, not because he fears me.

What kind of parent needs their children to feel fear and love for them??? Well, to answer that question, here’s a quote from my opponent to give you an idea:

Would you hold dear or desire something that is unimpressive and ordinary?

I think my old man is a pathetic excuse for a father. I don’t think he’s impressive at all. You know what – I still love him very much. I hold him dear because he loved me and taught me … and in the end he was just as mislead and brainwashed as his old man. Fear is not required to love. Might I quote another reference from the bible that got glossed over in my opponents rebuttal.

1 John 4:18 ~ There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear...
Clearly the Bible contradicts itself and this verse disagrees with my opponents statement above.



Sorry this went so long. I look forward to our conclusions and I’d like to add that I am not trying to disparage my opponent’s reputation as a good father. He may be an excellent father. Rather, I am trying to point out the flaws the scriptures offer regarding the love of a "heavenly father."

[tackattack]

For the sake of brevity I’m not going to address my opponents relationship with his father or son, all the pointed perjoratives, and ad hom. and try and make this concise.

1- At the easiest and outlying most reasoning, my opponent chooses to ignore the appropriate definition of the word fear. I clearly cited “: to have a reverential awe of <fear God>” as the appropriate definition. If my opponent chooses a definition that supports his bias, that’s fine. I’ll even allow for this moving of the goalposts, because I’m sure the majority of viewers also share the perspective that if God existed he would be malevolent.
2- I’ll ignore the fact that my opponents blatant cherry picking is disgustingly obvious. The center verse (which I apparently spent too little time on because it was cherry picked) to my opponent’s argument convieniently left off “because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.“ in the same verse he only half quoted. If I change the definition of fear to suit my opponent’s bias then I’d completely agree that abject fear or fear of punishment in no way fosters a healthy type of love. What this verse, or common sense, doesn’t say is that they are impossible to feel together. In fact it implies that they are felt simultaneously and one lessens the other.
3- The usefulness, or good and bad, of what an emotion’s value is based on the object of that emotion. I understand my opponents religious beliefs (or lack therof) necessitate that the object is evil for his argument to even come close to being logical. Despite the fact that his favorite verse in context with the previous 2 verses defines that object :

“And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the Day of Judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.”

4- I’ll ignore the statement from my opponent that says “Are there positive forms of fear? No.” I clearly cited where there were examples of that. I think thrill seekers around the world would have no hobbies without fear of the thing they love to do. Despite that my opponent acquiesce the point all together later in the conversation. By admitting that a child can love and abusive parent he fears this alone would end the debate.
5- Then my opponent wants to create this false dichotomy between love and fear by stating “Love and Fear are opposites and they are not compatible.” I hate to inform my opponent, but any emotion’s opposite is apathy. The opposite of feeling an emotion such as lust is apathy; one such as joy’s opposite is also apathy. I’ll let you guess what the opposite of fear is, apathy. What about love? Apathy. If my opponent had another rebuttal round I’m sure he’d move the goal posts on this as well, so I’ll go ahead and acquiesce this as well and we’ll just talk about within the emotion realm.
6- Anyone who does a simple google search of Contrasting and categorization of emotions or has an objective look at emotions knows that the opposite emotion of love is hate (not fear) and the opposite emotion of fear is hope. Even at this basest level if I allow all of the other problems with his arguments, my opponent’s false dichotomy of “Love and Fear are opposites and they are not compatible” fails miserably.
Final words: If you can experience any two emotions nothing precludes you from experiencing them together, as many do on a daily basis. This debate isn’t about whether it’s healthy or unhealthy to love what you fear. If we are ignoring definitions, then it’s about whether they’re mutually exclusive which I felt I clearly showed they weren’t on many levels.

I’d like to thank my opponent for his time and graciousness in this debate. I think we are both winners in that we have contributed to this community by healthy debate. As far as which side won, that’s for the audience to decide. I would hope that it’s less about wining and more about learning about other’s perspectives. I’ve enjoyed this debate once again thank all of you for taking the time to read this far down the thread!

-Dave Tackett

[Cinjin]

I fail to see how I moved the goal post. I may have elaborated on an ever so slight rabbit trail, but the debate remains the same. Love and fear are not compatible and claiming that one of my points is a false dichotomy is no more legitimate than saying, "nuh-uh, you're wrong" ... the words false dichotomy just make it seem slightly more intellectually valid.

Apparently, my opponent feels that the word compatible means simply to exist together, thereby claiming that I have regressed on my own statements. It's not true. Compatible means: capable of existing or living together in harmony . Key words being, in harmony. According to his definition, bunny rabbits are compatible with wolves because they live in the same square mile of forest. This notion would be funny if it wasn't so absurd. Furthermore, he makes an effort to show a "compatible" connection by using thrill seekers as an example. Making an effort to point out a love and a fear of an extreme sport. (By the way an adrenaline rush is in not fear, but I will concede the point in the interest of time and the fact that it's a bad analogy anyway.) Yes, those moments of fear sought out by thrill seekers are wanted, but talk about cherry picking ... you can't equate the love of a rush to the love a father, let alone a "heavenly father." That thrill seeker IS NOT fearing what he loves, he actually loves the fear (adrenaline) itself. It's apples and oranges. False dichotomy anyone?

No surprise, my opponent has accused me of blatant cherry picking ... something Christians have a lot of understanding of. In all honesty, I had no intention of cherry picking anything. There are many verses that support my point and I simply (and very quickly) located a few that would support my point. It wouldn't have mattered which ones I picked - I would've been accused of cherry picking because they ALL support my point. In addition, his response to the verse in question is an apologists wet dream ... claiming that the author was talking about fear of punishment even thought the Bible CLEARLY states the instruction to have great fear of GOD.

Have I back-peddled at all as my opponent has made claim? I am not aware. I have said from the beginning that it is possible to feel both fear and love for an individual or a thing, but they are not compatible ... that is to say, there is no harmony in their mutual existence. For example, I love music and I love to perform live shows week after week, but I feel fear (apprehension, nervousness) right before a large group of people. I love AND I fear at that moment, but they are not compatible, they are not in harmony and would NEVER want them to exist for any kind of duration. In fact, it is my hope that someday those brief moments of fear will never be felt again.

Thank you for the debate tacky. As always, you are well-thought and eloquent in your writing.

This is not a final point by any means, just something to make you smile as you finish this thread...





If you don't believe me ... believe Yoda.

[tackattack]

This concludes the final round of the debate officially closed.