Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: April 27, 2024, 10:55 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Of Concepts and Abstraction
#1
Of Concepts and Abstraction
As far as I understand, there are two main types of cognitive faculties i.e. methods of gaining knowledge and understanding. The first is perception, i.e. evidence provided by the senses. The second is conceptualization, i.e. forming, processing and integrating ideas about the evidence provided. I guess instinct can be counted as a third type, but I'm not sure, since it seems to be a form of automatic knowledge with no process involved. Rather than being a method of gaining knowledge, instinct seems to be knowledge coded in genes.

Now, as far as perception goes, things are pretty simple. it consists of becoming aware of something that exists. By definition you cannot perceive something that is not there. So, if it seems like you are perceiving something that is not there, it is not actually perception but either projection, illusion or deception.

Conceptualization is forming ideas about the percepts. Abstraction, a higher form of conceptualization, is forming ideas about those ideas and so on. The higher up along the ladder of conceptualization you go, the more complex it all becomes.

Here's where things get interesting.

First of all, I consider that only the concepts that are validly rooted in relevant percepts can be classified as true. That is, not just true given certain premises which may or may not be true themselves, but true as in corresponding to reality. They would not be absolutely true as they would change as the underlying reality changes. They would be contextually true, with reality providing the context.

Any other concept built upon that concept would similarly be true. The two conditions to be satisfied would be that it should ultimately be rooted in actual perception (not apparent perception) and it should be rationally derivable.

Now, here are a few observations and/or opinions regarding the process of conceptualization.

1. It would appear to me that humans are unique in their ability to conceptualize. This is what, in my opinion, sets us apart from other animals and computers. While both can get percepts i.e. get sensory inputs and store them (conditioning in case of animals), any conceptualization isn't possible. I could be wrong on this.

2. A lot of false beliefs arise from misapplication of abstract concepts or from incomplete integration. For example, by observation we can come up with the concept of "causation". Underlying it is dependence on time. Misapplying it would give us the "first cause" argument where it would not be valid.

3. The concepts we have integrated often form the stick by which we measure any future percepts. I spoke earlier of actual and apparent perceptions. The human perceptive facility is not perfect, nor is it expected to be. You may be doing actual perception (i.e. what you see is actually there) or you may be doing apparent perception (i.e. what you think you see is not there).

However, reality itself would be self-consistent. By its nature, contradictions would not exists within it. So, if what you perceive now seems to be contradicting an earlier established concept, then either your perception is false or the concept is. In case of the latter, either the underlying percepts are false or the process of conceptualization is fallacious. Which is why the process needs to be conscious and rational, as far as possible, to avoid believing in contradictory concepts.

4. This would be one of the points I wan to clarify. What would be the metaphysical nature of concepts?

They do not have a physical existence. They 'exist' simply as a part of consciousness. Can they be said to actually exist?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not talking about some sort of platonic reality where all concepts are real.

As far as I know, all concepts are products of consciousness and have no physical existence. The concept of language, without a mind to understand it, would simply be ink on paper. The laws of physics are concepts created to identify and describe the working of reality, but without scientists to create them, they would not exist, even if reality would continue to work as always. The entire field of mathematics is an abstraction and would not exists if not for human consciousness.

But, if you notice something here, I kept using the words 'be', 'created', 'exist' - words which, as I understand, are inexorably tied to physical existence and yet I keep applying them to things that have no physical existence. That's because I know of no other more appropriate words here. Is this simply a limitation of language?

5. Finally - and as an extension of the last point - what does the dependence on consciousness say about objectivity of concepts? Assuming, for a moment, that 'existence' is applicable to concepts.

Simply put - a concept has been completely derived from an actual precept, i.e. one that represents reality. Something is considered objective if it exists independently of consciousness. However, here consciousness plays the critical role creating the concept.

The actual nature of consciousness is immaterial for a true concept, i.e. if a concept is based on a real precept and is validly derived, then it doesn't matter who does the process of creation, it would be the same. Also, the same consciousness the not required for the continued existence of the same concept. Newton's laws still exist even though Newton is long dead. This is because the root of those concepts is reality.

To draw an analogy - consciousness is the ground required for developing and carrying the plants of concepts. So, while these plants are entities separate and distinct from the ground, they cannot exist without it. So, do plants exist independently of the ground?

Do concepts exists independently of consciousness? That should answer whether they are objective or not. (Ofcourse, the other option is that my definition of "objective" is inapplicable here. Rather than "independent of" it should be "not a derivative of").

That's all for now.

Genkaus
Reply
#2
RE: Of Concepts and Abstraction
That didn't hurt your head?

What does it mean, concept outside of consciousness; without the consciousness to conceptualize?

We recognize pattern; we reinforce pattern, leaving reality to be merely the most reinforced pattern. In terms of philosophy, we can go round and round; in terms of science I'm thinking what is needed is some primitives with no written language. That's what I'm stuck on as of late; how much the written word has defined what we see as "normal," whereas it ain't exactly natural.
[Image: twQdxWW.jpg]
Reply
#3
RE: Of Concepts and Abstraction
(January 11, 2012 at 1:38 pm)houseofcantor Wrote: That didn't hurt your head?

What does it mean, concept outside of consciousness; without the consciousness to conceptualize?

We recognize pattern; we reinforce pattern, leaving reality to be merely the most reinforced pattern. In terms of philosophy, we can go round and round; in terms of science I'm thinking what is needed is some primitives with no written language. That's what I'm stuck on as of late; how much the written word has defined what we see as "normal," whereas it ain't exactly natural.

That is what I mean. We are required to recognize, conceptualize and reinforce patterns.

The idea or the concept of a "pattern" needs us to exist. While reality is itself independent of us, the identification and categorization of reality cannot occur without us. This is what we call knowledge.

So, if even knowledge about reality cannot exist without us (the use of the word "exist" being questionable here), can we claim that it exists independently of us?
Reply
#4
RE: Of Concepts and Abstraction
Not from where I'm sitting. Ours is a cognition of a biosphere, of matter and space; evolution and physics. What of the reality of an aphid or ant, an elephant or euglena? Is life what it is to exist, to be real? What of granite? What of hydrogen? We have a perception of reality biased towards the organic and conceptualized to scale of eyes five feet off the ground; thirty trillion cells self-organized into an automated community where the natural processes are tended by a brain of which we have no awareness. Where the whole enterprise is guided by an emergent simulation, mind, a synergy distinctly lacking in empirical reality yet without which the entire structure is dysfunctional biological morass waiting to be recycled into the ecology.

Logic dictates chains of causality were of necessity linked to form "what is I" from "what exists;" but I was never a big fan of formal philosophy. I have concluded that all chains of causality must reduce to I; that furthermore if I define "what exists," I must consider I do not exist. I'm sitting here pecking away at this keyboard in the desert, anticipating the pressing of the "post reply;" when another I may or may not consider these words in time for me to still be. Here, or anywhere at all.

"What exists" has found firmer ground in the realm of empirical science; "I" only exist in temporal relation to "you," and then only in simulation. For myself, archetype; "I love Gwyneth Paltrow" is this existence, which defines nothing in itself yet everything of itself.
[Image: twQdxWW.jpg]
Reply
#5
RE: Of Concepts and Abstraction
(January 11, 2012 at 1:57 am)genkaus Wrote: Now, as far as perception goes, things are pretty simple. it consists of becoming aware of something that exists. By definition you cannot perceive something that is not there. So, if it seems like you are perceiving something that is not there, it is not actually perception but either projection, illusion or deception.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_language
If you find interest in deep thoughts such as the ones you are sharing then I believe you would find interest in the philosophy of language as well. As it relates to this quote, your statement of definition is a limit of language - you probably could think to yourself and identify something which does not exist - in other words, perceive non-existing objects. Also, how does one account for differing perceptions? Surely we don't all perceive our realities in the same way, does that imply subjective reality? But then we encounter the limits of language once again - contradiction of definition.

(January 11, 2012 at 1:57 am)genkaus Wrote: Here's where things get interesting.

First of all, I consider that only the concepts that are validly rooted in relevant percepts can be classified as true. That is, not just true given certain premises which may or may not be true themselves, but true as in corresponding to reality. They would not be absolutely true as they would change as the underlying reality changes. They would be contextually true, with reality providing the context.

Any other concept built upon that concept would similarly be true. The two conditions to be satisfied would be that it should ultimately be rooted in actual perception (not apparent perception) and it should be rationally derivable.

If you choose to define reality as what 'exists' then you committed a contradiction of definition in this quote. Reality cannot change according to your prior statements. Suppose we allow it the ability to change, and we abide by a contextual reality, what then of truths outside of our contextual reality? - these are defined by you as either concepts or abstractions (which might not have any precepts to be based upon) yet they are true. A simple example would be alternative dimensions - created out of abstractions (mathematics) yet not available to perception. Are these true even though they do not 'exist' in a contextual reality - meaning we cannot perceive them? They are based upon concepts which abide by precepts, and are rationally derivable, yet they contradict an observed reality.

(January 11, 2012 at 1:57 am)genkaus Wrote: Now, here are a few observations and/or opinions regarding the process of conceptualization.

1. It would appear to me that humans are unique in their ability to conceptualize. This is what, in my opinion, sets us apart from other animals and computers. While both can get percepts i.e. get sensory inputs and store them (conditioning in case of animals), any conceptualization isn't possible. I could be wrong on this.

2. A lot of false beliefs arise from misapplication of abstract concepts or from incomplete integration. For example, by observation we can come up with the concept of "causation". Underlying it is dependence on time. Misapplying it would give us the "first cause" argument where it would not be valid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiology
The study of causation. Quite interesting to read into. By this statement, are you implying that the first cause argument is invalid due to its assumption as the premise of time?

(January 11, 2012 at 1:57 am)genkaus Wrote: 3. The concepts we have integrated often form the stick by which we measure any future percepts. I spoke earlier of actual and apparent perceptions. The human perceptive facility is not perfect, nor is it expected to be. You may be doing actual perception (i.e. what you see is actually there) or you may be doing apparent perception (i.e. what you think you see is not there).

However, reality itself would be self-consistent. By its nature, contradictions would not exists within it. So, if what you perceive now seems to be contradicting an earlier established concept, then either your perception is false or the concept is. In case of the latter, either the underlying percepts are false or the process of conceptualization is fallacious. Which is why the process needs to be conscious and rational, as far as possible, to avoid believing in contradictory concepts.

We've had this discussion before, but what if the concept of rationality is false? Your statement is well thought out, but what happens if both your perception and past concepts are false?

(January 11, 2012 at 1:57 am)genkaus Wrote: 4. This would be one of the points I wan to clarify. What would be the metaphysical nature of concepts?

They do not have a physical existence. They 'exist' simply as a part of consciousness. Can they be said to actually exist?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not talking about some sort of platonic reality where all concepts are real.

As far as I know, all concepts are products of consciousness and have no physical existence. The concept of language, without a mind to understand it, would simply be ink on paper. The laws of physics are concepts created to identify and describe the working of reality, but without scientists to create them, they would not exist, even if reality would continue to work as always. The entire field of mathematics is an abstraction and would not exists if not for human consciousness.

Quite the assumption. What influenced you to think this way, as to the nature of existence? Why did you leave out perception when talking about the metaphysical existence of that which the conscience produces?

(January 11, 2012 at 1:57 am)genkaus Wrote: But, if you notice something here, I kept using the words 'be', 'created', 'exist' - words which, as I understand, are inexorably tied to physical existence and yet I keep applying them to things that have no physical existence. That's because I know of no other more appropriate words here. Is this simply a limitation of language?

Mhm.

(January 11, 2012 at 1:57 am)genkaus Wrote: To draw an analogy - consciousness is the ground required for developing and carrying the plants of concepts. So, while these plants are entities separate and distinct from the ground, they cannot exist without it. So, do plants exist independently of the ground?
Do concepts exists independently of consciousness? That should answer whether they are objective or not. (Ofcourse, the other option is that my definition of "objective" is inapplicable here. Rather than "independent of" it should be "not a derivative of").

Perhaps the question is, can plants exist independently of the ground? Metaphysics has no interest in the reality of existence, simple the necessity/possibility.



Brevity is the soul of wit.
Reply
#6
RE: Of Concepts and Abstraction
Man, holy shit. That's a lot to take in. I'm glad we have Perhaps.
42

Reply
#7
RE: Of Concepts and Abstraction
Most of what you say makes no sense whatsoever, but I'll try to reply.

(January 11, 2012 at 3:36 pm)houseofcantor Wrote: Not from where I'm sitting. Ours is a cognition of a biosphere, of matter and space; evolution and physics. What of the reality of an aphid or ant, an elephant or euglena?

Reality, being independent of consciousness, is not different for any of these creatures. The process of cognition might be different in practice, but it is the cognition of the same reality.

(January 11, 2012 at 3:36 pm)houseofcantor Wrote: Is life what it is to exist, to be real?

No. Not everything that exists is alive.

(January 11, 2012 at 3:36 pm)houseofcantor Wrote: What of granite? What of hydrogen?

What of them?

(January 11, 2012 at 3:36 pm)houseofcantor Wrote: We have a perception of reality biased towards the organic and conceptualized to scale of eyes five feet off the ground;

Incorrect. The perception may be limited due to the nature of our physical senses but the conceptualization is not. Nor does it occur automatically. It always is a conscious process.

(January 11, 2012 at 3:36 pm)houseofcantor Wrote: thirty trillion cells self-organized into an automated community where the natural processes are tended by a brain of which we have no awareness.

No perceptual awareness. We have other ways of gaining awareness of i.e. knowledge about things that are beyond the range of our perception.

(January 11, 2012 at 3:36 pm)houseofcantor Wrote: Where the whole enterprise is guided by an emergent simulation, mind, a synergy distinctly lacking in empirical reality yet without which the entire structure is dysfunctional biological morass waiting to be recycled into the ecology.

The nature of existence of mind, cognition and knowledge is one of the questions I seek to be answered here.

(January 11, 2012 at 3:36 pm)houseofcantor Wrote: Logic dictates chains of causality were of necessity linked to form "what is I" from "what exists;" but I was never a big fan of formal philosophy.

I can see that.

(January 11, 2012 at 3:36 pm)houseofcantor Wrote: I have concluded that all chains of causality must reduce to I;

And how have you done that without using formal logic or philosophy?


(January 11, 2012 at 3:36 pm)houseofcantor Wrote: that furthermore if I define "what exists," I must consider I do not exist.

You don't define what exists. You can only identify.

And "I do not exist" is self-contradictory.

(January 11, 2012 at 3:36 pm)houseofcantor Wrote: I'm sitting here pecking away at this keyboard in the desert, anticipating the pressing of the "post reply;" when another I may or may not consider these words in time for me to still be. Here, or anywhere at all.

What does this mean?


(January 11, 2012 at 3:36 pm)houseofcantor Wrote: "What exists" has found firmer ground in the realm of empirical science; "I" only exist in temporal relation to "you," and then only in simulation.

No. You exist even without any relation to me - temporal or otherwise.

(January 11, 2012 at 3:36 pm)houseofcantor Wrote: For myself, archetype; "I love Gwyneth Paltrow" is this existence, which defines nothing in itself yet everything of itself.

Actually this tells me nothing at all.

Reply





Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)