Hello atheistforum

[Handprint]

You know if I wanted to know about God, i would go and ask Christians on a Christian Forum or go and read the Bible, why are you pressing something upon me that i didn't ask for or search out?

You're being a douche.

[Epimethean]

Can we call him Summer's Eve then?

[brotherlylove]

I am just exploring the subject with you. You mentioned you had searched for God and I wondered about how you searched for Him..and since you mentioned you never checked out Christianity because you had dismissed it as a little kid, I suggested that logically, it bears consideration if you wanted to actually investigate the question of God seriously. I am not sure exactly how one might rule out God in the first place, being that we are finite beings with limited knowledge.

Don't confuse dismissing Christianity with not considering it. I may have concluded it to be false at a young age, but Christianity has been in my face enough that I am fully aware of what it entails. Still, I have dismissed it.

And I haven't ruled out god completely. Being an agnostic atheist, I admit there is a possibility god exists, albeit a very, very tiny one. The thing I have completely ruled out is a personal god that has any stake in human affairs.

Okay, so you're open to the possibility that a Deist god exists. Why do you rule out a personal God?

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I have ruled out the possibility of the judeo christian god coz it is obvious bullshit.

Hey downbeatplumb Do you think Jesus existed? If so, what do you think of Him?

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I have ruled out the possibility of the judeo christian god coz it is obvious bullshit.

Christianity is true if and only if the god of the Old Testament is true. The god of the Old Testament is false. Therefore Christianity is false.

Hello popeyespappy. If Jesus was resurrected, Christianity is true. If Christianity is true, the Old Testament God is true. The endpoint for all these questions is Jesus Christ. If He was not raised from the dead, none of it is true. If He was, He is sitting at the right hand of the Father at this very moment.

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You know if I wanted to know about God, i would go and ask Christians on a Christian Forum or go and read the Bible, why are you pressing something upon me that i didn't ask for or search out?

You're being a douche.

Hi SophiaGrace I don't think we've spoken before, and so I am not sure how I am pressing something on you. This is my introduction thread, and many people here have engaged me in conversation about my faith. I could understand if I were going around the forum giving sermons, but I'm not. Nothing I have said, except my introduction I suppose, has been unsolicited. So, I am confused as to why you are criticizing me here.

[Abracadabra]

After receiving the Holy Spirit, several lifelong addictions were dropped within a few months, without any real effort on my part. I simply had no desire for them anymore. I also felt joy for the first time since I was a child.

I had a similar experience without religion at all. One day, I simply decided that I was getting tired of my lifestyle and I decided to change. I did change. I quit smoking cold turkey. And I was a heavy smoker. And like you, I really didn't have a problem doing it. I simply truly had no desire to do it anymore. The first couple weeks I did experience some physical withdraw which is to be expected. But that was about it. As far as "desire" is concerned. Nope. I had made up my mind that I simply didn't want to do that anymore.

So I'm living proof that no divine intervention is necessary for these types of changes. You aren't describing anything that I haven't done without any help from any God. I quit drinking and smoking grass too at the very same time. But since I wasn't a heavy alcoholic I didn't have physical withdraw from lack of alcohol, and marijuana isn't addictive so there's really no reason why anyone shouldn't be able to stop smoking grass if they want to.

Not sure what kind of additions you had, but if you where having seriously nasty drug addict problems, then it's no wonder you had a nervous breakdown about it and had to pretend to call upon a higher power to convince yourself to quit.

And I'm sure you feel more joy in your life now that you have dumped your bad habits. That's a given that you'll feel better about yourself and life after cleaning up your act.

What I can tell you is that, no matter how certain you are, no matter how bitterly opposed you are to it, your beliefs would change instaneously if you were to receive evidence it was true. What I didn't understand, and what many of you probably don't understand, is that God does provide evidence of His existence. He gave us instructions on how to receive this evidence, and you refuse to follow those instructions, you can't expect to get any results.

So, that is my experience in a nutshell, and my thoughts about unbelief. I look forward to getting to know you better. God bless.

I personally have nothing to be 'saved' from in my current lifestyle. Like you I had already cleaned up my act several decades ago. I already have joy in my life, and I don't feel any need to call upon a God for assistance for anything.

The only thing I would need to be 'saved' from at this point in my life would be the threats of eternal torment and suffering inflicted upon me by an angry God who is pissed at me for not believing in him.

With all due respect, I truly don't feel a need to ask such a nasty God to come into my life and "save" me from his own dastardly threats.

Yet, that would be the only reason I would need him at this point.

Your message might serve someone who has addiction problems, etc., and can't find the willpower on their own to clean up their act, just like you.

But your testimony doesn't even apply to someone like me. My "addictions" and bad habits were never that bad to begin with, save for the cigarettes, I was a pretty heavy smoker and I thank myself for quitting that disgusting happen. But it was definitely my own decision and willpower that I appealed to.

In short, your "testimony" doesn't impress me. All you are basically telling me is that in order for you to clean up your act, you had to first lean on a psychological crutch that some God was 'saving' you.

Personally I think you could have cleaned up your act on your own if you simply had faith in yourself and the power of your own will. That's what I turned to, and it worked for me.

So, no sale, here.

Having said all of the above, I'd like to add that I'm very glad to hear that you have indeed cleaned up your life. Now if you can drop your addiction to religious proselytizing that you had swapped in place of your other addictions you'll be all set.

[brotherlylove]

I had a similar experience without religion at all. One day, I simply decided that I was getting tired of my lifestyle and I decided to change. I did change. I quit smoking cold turkey. And I was a heavy smoker. And like you, I really didn't have a problem doing it. I simply truly had no desire to do it anymore. The first couple weeks I did experience some physical withdraw which is to be expected. But that was about it. As far as "desire" is concerned. Nope. I had made up my mind that I simply didn't want to do that anymore.

So I'm living proof that no divine intervention is necessary for these types of changes. You aren't describing anything that I haven't done without any help from any God. I quit drinking and smoking grass too at the very same time. But since I wasn't a heavy alcoholic I didn't have physical withdraw from lack of alcohol, and marijuana isn't addictive so there's really no reason why anyone shouldn't be able to stop smoking grass if they want to.

Not sure what kind of additions you had, but if you where having seriously nasty drug addict problems, then it's no wonder you had a nervous breakdown about it and had to pretend to call upon a higher power to convince yourself to quit.

And I'm sure you feel more joy in your life now that you have dumped your bad habits. That's a given that you'll feel better about yourself and life after cleaning up your act.

What I can tell you is that, no matter how certain you are, no matter how bitterly opposed you are to it, your beliefs would change instaneously if you were to receive evidence it was true. What I didn't understand, and what many of you probably don't understand, is that God does provide evidence of His existence. He gave us instructions on how to receive this evidence, and you refuse to follow those instructions, you can't expect to get any results.

So, that is my experience in a nutshell, and my thoughts about unbelief. I look forward to getting to know you better. God bless.

I personally have nothing to be 'saved' from in my current lifestyle. Like you I had already cleaned up my act several decades ago. I already have joy in my life, and I don't feel any need to call upon a God for assistance for anything.

The only thing I would need to be 'saved' from at this point in my life would be the threats of eternal torment and suffering inflicted upon me by an angry God who is pissed at me for not believing in him.

With all due respect, I truly don't feel a need to ask such a nasty God to come into my life and "save" me from his own dastardly threats.

Yet, that would be the only reason I would need him at this point.

Your message might serve someone who has addiction problems, etc., and can't find the willpower on their own to clean up their act, just like you.

But your testimony doesn't even apply to someone like me. My "addictions" and bad habits were never that bad to begin with, save for the cigarettes, I was a pretty heavy smoker and I thank myself for quitting that disgusting happen. But it was definitely my own decision and willpower that I appealed to.

In short, your "testimony" doesn't impress me. All you are basically telling me is that in order for you to clean up your act, you had to first lean on a psychological crutch that some God was 'saving' you.

Personally I think you could have cleaned up your act on your own if you simply had faith in yourself and the power of your own will. That's what I turned to, and it worked for me.

So, no sale, here.

Having said all of the above, I'd like to add that I'm very glad to hear that you have indeed cleaned up your life. Now if you can drop your addiction to religious proselytizing that you had swapped in place of your other addictions you'll be all set.

Hello Abracadabra I think you might have mistaken the meaning of some of things I said in my testimony. I wasn't seeking out God to clean up my life; I was exploring Christianity to test its truth claims. I presented as evidence of its truth the fact that it cured me of addictions, and that with virtually zero effort on my part. It's a verification of the truth claims of Christianity, to free us from the bondage of our desires. I wasn't a "nasty drug addict" who bounced back, I simply had certain appetites like anyone else that I am far better off not having. Neither would I say that only a Christian could quit a nasty habit. I myself quit smoking cold turkey before I was saved. That isn't the purpose of salvation, it is simply something beneficial that comes along with it.

I would also explain, since you brought it up, that there is no punishment for unbelief. We are punished not for unbelief, but for sin, and the wages of sin is death. You may want to check to see how many times you violate the ten commandments every day. Even a few times a day is going to equal tens of thousands of sins at the end of life, and this is what God holds you accountable for. He offers you a pardon through His Son, but if you reject that pardon you are on your own.

I'm happy to hear you have quit smoking and you have joy in your life. I have noticed that you have in your religion "spiritualist". Do you believe that you have a spirit? If so, where does it come from? I also notice that it says in your signature "you are God". What do you mean by that?

[Abracadabra]

I would also explain, since you brought it up, that there is no punishment for unbelief.

If you don't believe that, then you don't believe in the teachings of the Christian Bible. And you are misrepresenting the doctrine.

John.3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Unless of course you dismiss the writings of John as being undependable and false teachings.

I have noticed that you have in your religion "spiritualist". Do you believe that you have a spirit?

I don't believe that spirit is something to 'have'. We either are spiritual beings or we aren't.

If we are, then we all are, and our true nature is that we are all eternal beings. And we always have been even before we were born into our current physical bodies.

After all, if you can believe in life after death, why should it be so hard for you to believe in life before birth?

If we aren't spiritual, then the secular atheists are probably right.

You ask:

If so, where does it (spirit) come from?

I have no clue, and I'm quite sure that no one else does either. This is why I prefer mystical philosophies that confess that they are indeed based on mysticism. They don't claim to know what cannot be known.

One thing I am totally convinced of is that spirits aren't delved out at birth as 'souls' by some egoistical male-chauvinistic God who has devised a plan where the vast majority of these souls will be cast into eternal suffering and punishment.

And again, that's what Christianity teaches. In fact, according to the New Testament rumors Jesus himself supposedly taught this.

The following is supposed to be Jesus speaking and verifying that those who do not make it into the kingdom of heaven will indeed be cast into a place of everlasting punishment.

Matt.25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The following is supposed to be Jesus speaking and verifying that only few will make it into the kingdom of heaven.

Matt.7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Notice that Jesus claims here that FEW will make it to eternal life.

So unlike what you have claimed, the Christian God does indeed condemn people for merely not believing in his son (according to the gospel of John) .

And the teachings attributed to Jesus have Jesus himself confessing that the biblical God, as a creator of souls, is a loser God, and that he loses the vast majority of souls that he creates and that only FEW will make it into the Kingdom of this God.

So it's a story of a male-chauvinistic God who most certainly will condemn and hurt people severely for merely not believing in the name of Jesus (according to these scriptures).

So if you're going around telling people that this God will not condemn anyone for merely not believing in him, you need to do a bit more research on the religion.

I also notice that it says in your signature "you are God". What do you mean by that?

"Tat t'vam asi" comes from Eastern Mystical spiritual philosophies. If you have to ask, you're clearly ignorant of the Eastern Mystical philosophies because this is pretty basic stuff. Kind of like believing that Jesus is the son of God is to Christianity.

I can only suggest that you seek out courses and/or books on Eastern Mysticism if you'd like to know more about it.

[brotherlylove]

If you don't believe that, then you don't believe in the teachings of the Christian Bible. And you are misrepresenting the doctrine.

John.3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Unless of course you dismiss the writings of John as being undependable and false teachings.

It's a subtle difference we're talking about here, but it is an important one. Unbelief is a sin, but it isn't accurate to say you are condemned for unbelief. You are condemned for sin, of which unbelief is one. Unbelief is particularly grievous, because it slams the door on your salvation, but by definition it is a sin and not a special category of sin.

I don't believe that spirit is something to 'have'. We either are spiritual beings or we aren't.

If we are, then we all are, and our true nature is that we are all eternal beings. And we always have been even before we were born into our current physical bodies.

After all, if you can believe in life after death, why should it be so hard for you to believe in life before birth?

If we aren't spiritual, then the secular atheists are probably right.

Why do you believe we are spiritual beings, and why do you think it necessarily follows that we have always existed if so? Why couldn't we have been created? What in your experience informs you about this?

I have no clue, and I'm quite sure that no one else does either. This is why I prefer mystical philosophies that confess that they are indeed based on mysticism. They don't claim to know what cannot be known.

Why are you so certain that no one knows? Wouldn't that be knowing something about it for certain?

If One thing I am totally convinced of is that spirits aren't delved out at birth as 'souls' by some egoistical male-chauvinistic God who has devised a plan where the vast majority of these souls will be cast into eternal suffering and punishment.
And again, that's what Christianity teaches. In fact, according to the New Testament rumors Jesus himself supposedly taught this.

The following is supposed to be Jesus speaking and verifying that those who do not make it into the kingdom of heaven will indeed be cast into a place of everlasting punishment.

Matt.25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The following is supposed to be Jesus speaking and verifying that only few will make it into the kingdom of heaven.

Matt.7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Notice that Jesus claims here that FEW will make it to eternal life.

So unlike what you have claimed, the Christian God does indeed condemn people for merely not believing in his son (according to the gospel of John) .

And the teachings attributed to Jesus have Jesus himself confessing that the biblical God, as a creator of souls, is a loser God, and that he loses the vast majority of souls that he creates and that only FEW will make it into the Kingdom of this God.

So it's a story of a male-chauvinistic God who most certainly will condemn and hurt people severely for merely not believing in the name of Jesus (according to these scriptures).

So if you're going around telling people that this God will not condemn anyone for merely not believing in him, you need to do a bit more research on the religion.

The truth isn't what you prefer, though. You may prefer not to believe that many will end up in hell but that isn't how you evaluate the truth. The truth is what it is regardless of what you prefer. You have said that no one can know the truth, which again on its face is knowing something about it, but you have to admit that the mere fact that you have a spirit strongly suggests someone gave it to you, since you were in fact created here.

If "Tat t'vam asi" comes from Eastern Mystical spiritual philosophies. If you have to ask, you're clearly ignorant of the Eastern Mystical philosophies because this is pretty basic stuff. Kind of like believing that Jesus is the son of God is to Christianity.

I can only suggest that you seek out courses and/or books on Eastern Mysticism if you'd like to know more about it.

I know quite a bit about Eastern Mysticism and I know what people mean by that in general, but I am asking what does that mean to you in particular?

[Abracadabra]

It's a subtle difference we're talking about here, but it is an important one. Unbelief is a sin, but it isn't accurate to say you are condemned for unbelief. You are condemned for sin, of which unbelief is one. Unbelief is particularly grievous, because it slams the door on your salvation, but by definition it is a sin and not a special category of sin.

I hope you aren't planning on becoming an apologist for the Christian doctrine because you are extremely lame at it.

Your so-called "subtle difference" here is utter nonsense.

I guess I'll have to teach you about your own religion.

In Christianity a "sin" is nothing other than disobedience of God. Therefore if unbelief is a "sin" all that means is that God is demanding that people must believe in him lest he will be exceedingly cruel and hurtful toward them.

So it's a religion about a mean hateful egotistical God who will be extremely hateful and hurtful toward people for merely not believing in him.

Your "subtle apologetic argument" here hasn't changed that fact at all.

The religion is about an egotistical God who unrighteous hates people for merely not believing in him and will condemn them to eternal damnation for this very thing.

Sorry to hear that you are in denial of what the religion actually teaches.

Why do you believe we are spiritual beings, and why do you think it necessarily follows that we have always existed if so? Why couldn't we have been created? What in your experience informs you about this?

I believe that I'm an eternal spiritual being because I have always intuitively felt that this is the case. It's strictly a "intuitive belief", I can't prove it logically. In terms of logic I can only offer reasons why I feel that it is rationally plausible.

I could be wrong. I confess that to myself and to the entire world. This is why I list myself as an "Agnostic Spiritualist". I do not have irrefutable knowledge of this spiritual essence to reality. I'm just personally confident on an intuitive level that this is the true state of affairs.

In fact, while I'm confessing truths allow me to also confess the truth that I cannot honestly rationalize the God portrayed in the Hebrew fables. When I tell you that I see it as being a portrait of an utterly stupid, hateful , and overbearingly ignorant picture of God, that is the truth.

So since this is how I honestly feel would you have me lie to this God and pretend that I believe in him just in the hopes of pacifying his anxiety to hurt me for not believing in him?

What the hell kind of a God would that be? My only hope for salvation would be to lie to this God and pretend that the ancient Hebrew bull shit makes sense?

You've got to be kidding me.

Why are you so certain that no one knows (that reality is spiritual)? Wouldn't that be knowing something about it for certain?

No. It would simply be making a statement about my beliefs concerning human knowledge in general.

I also believe that I can know with absolute certainty that the biblical portrait of God cannot possibly be true (as it is described in the scriptures). To me it's obvious that it can't possibly be true (as written) because the God that it portrays would necessarily need to be a hateful cold-blooded ass. And that flies in the very face of what the God is supposed to be like. So the stories (as written) cannot possibly be true. They simply contradict themselves at every turn of the page.

If there is any spiritual truth in the biblical writings at all, it is very sparsely scattered between mostly bull shit.

I also personally believe that the rumors about the character of Jesus were sparked by the life of a Jewish Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva, but that's a whole other story.

The truth isn't what you prefer, though. You may prefer not to believe that many will end up in hell but that isn't how you evaluate the truth. The truth is what it is regardless of what you prefer. You have said that no one can know the truth, which again on its face is knowing something about it, but you have to admit that the mere fact that you have a spirit strongly suggests someone gave it to you, since you were in fact created here.

I wasn't attempting to speak about any "truth" there other than the truth that these scriptures have Jesus claiming that only few will make it into the kingdom of God, and the rest will be sent to eternal punishment.

If you believe that these scriptures correctly convey the "truth" of what Jesus supposedly taught, then you have no choice but to also acknowledge that in this religion the vast majority of people end up in hell.

That's simply what these scriptures demand. That's all.

I know quite a bit about Eastern Mysticism and I know what people mean by that in general, but I am asking what does that mean to you in particular?

Well, my spiritual philosophy is pretty deep. It would be impossible to convey it to you in posts as a practical matter. But to try to sum it up in a nutshell, I take it to mean that there exists a spiritual essence to life and we are it.

It seems pretty simple to me. The only place it gets complex is if you are going to demand a lengthy description of how I think of spirit. But truthfully even that should ultimately be quite easy. In short, spirit is unknowable. What more needs to be said?

This would be like me asking you to describe to me the true nature of the biblilcal God. Like as if you should be able to do that.

~~~~~~

Now let's talk about your testimony a bit. I'd like to share with you some of my impression on that.

In the OP you have stated the following:

A few years back I decided to give Christianity a try, to see if its claims were true. I answered an alter call and gave my life to Jesus Christ, confessing that I am a sinner, and pledging my life to Him

Then later you replied to me stating the following:

I wasn't seeking out God to clean up my life; I was exploring Christianity to test its truth claims.

Now let me tell you something. I was personally born and raised as a Christian, and I almost became a preacher before I realized how utterly idiotic the religion truly is. So I know quite a bit about it.

But look at what you are claiming above:

You are basically claiming that you did not go to Chrisitanity because you were seeking out God. Nor did you go because you had already believed in this God. But instead you went to Jesus Christ the Almighty as a TEST to tempt the Lord thy God to prove himself to you.

And according to you he went along with your plan.

After you had given yourself over him as a TEST to see if he was real he came into your life, fixed up all your petty problems, and filled you with joy to PROVE to you that he does indeed exist.

And now you are a passionate BELIEVER because Jesus came into your life and proved himself to you passing your TEST.

Personally I don't think that's how it's supposed work in any case.

But to each their own.

I'm glad that you got something out of your challenge to Jesus.

But you're definitely not going to sell the religion to me.

I personally don't believe that you even remotely understand what the religion is about.

[KichigaiNeko]

I can offer this...

[reverendjeremiah]

I can offer this...

Damnit...I wanted one free STOOGE slap to slap all these a-holes farting and shitting their superstitious shit allover the floor of our forum.