Do you agree with Richard Dawkins?

[Jinkies]

Comparing meat consumption to rape and pedophilia is more silly than anything you say I am being silly about put together.

How are moral objections not like moral objections? Regardless, I wasn't saying killing a cow to eat it is as bad, not as bad, or worse than raping a child. I was demonstrating flaws in your logic, since I used the exact same logical methodology you were using in the examples I gave dealing with rape, child rape, and murdering humans. I'm not proving that eating flesh is wrong here. I'm just showing where your logic and reasoning are poor.

And he fact you don't care about how my culture is or how much weight I place on my father's approval show you hold less respect for me and my culture than you do for the cows I eat.

I don't think your culture or your father's approval give you the right to do whatever you want to regardless of it's moral implications. I don't think your culture or your father's approval dictate what is right and wrong. If you think that means I have no respect for you, that's a problem with your reasoning skills, not with me.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

I don't think your culture or your father's approval dictate what is right and wrong.

No, but in most cultures,they try very hard,usually with a lot of success..

Most of us give in to such pressures at some time in our lives. In an ideal world,on reaching adulthood, people would start thinking for themselves and work out their own beliefs and values. Sadly, this rarely seems to happen. Hence,atheists are in the vast minority,and the least reflective,most conservative and self interested political parties stay in power most of the time

[Jinkies]

I don't think your culture or your father's approval dictate what is right and wrong.

No, but in most cultures,they try very hard,usually with a lot of success..

Culture is just what people do. Culture doesn't give reasons as to why things are done. You simply can't make any value judgments based on culture. Anyone arguing that cultural reasons are sufficient reasons to do something is arguing that it's right to do something because people already do it. It's a non-argument.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Culture is just what people do. Culture doesn't give reasons as to why things are done.

To study a culture is to study meaning. Cultures most definitely do give explanations/justifications of the 'why' of things, which give meaning to most of our actions.

[Jinkies]

Culture is just what people do. Culture doesn't give reasons as to why things are done.

To study a culture is to study meaning. Cultures most definitely do give explanations/justifications of the 'why' of things, which give meaning to most of our actions.

It's possible to study the origins of beliefs and behaviors in a culture. The origins aren't necessarily part of the culture, though, even if they are sometimes tied in (like with Christianity). Culture simply refers to the beliefs and behaviors of a group. When a person says he acts a certain way due to cultural reasons, he doesn't mean that he examined all of the thoughts that went into forming his culture's beliefs and came to a reasoned conclusion. He means he acts that way because other people in his culture also act that way.

Here's the relevant bit of the post I originally responded to for an example of what I mean:

Do you think asking me, a Korean, to quit eating meat is ethical? The Korean culture regards meat consumption as a privilege. Our food is rich with meat dishes. We have a seaweed and beef soup dish that we eat on our birthdays. Also, sticking to the roots, we don't waste the excess animal parts. Where do you think all this "exotic" food comes from? Down to the tongue. Is it ethical for you to ask me to give up what is literally a part of my culture? Do you know what my father would say to me if I became a vegan? He'd think that I'm very spoiled and ungrateful because when he was my age, meat was very hard to come by.

There is no logic or reason there. His argument is that it's unethical to make people stop performing an act simply because those people perform that act. It's a ridiculous non-argument that anyone who values reason should be ashamed to present. This is what people mean when they say they do things for cultural reasons. People who use logic and reason to evaluate options and make decisions are not doing things for cultural reasons.

[NoahsFarce]

[Jinkies]

By the way, this mirrors a Theist vs Atheist debate. Vegans are the theists here.

That's pretty hilarious, since I see it as the exact opposite. All I have done is point out flaws in your logic and reasoning. You have thrown out multiple straw man arguments, threw out naturalistic fallacies, professed your "faith" (believing things purely for cultural reasons), claimed objective morality exists (and claimed I believe it for some reason, probably due to your failure to understand what objective morality actually is), evidenced a complete failure to understand logic, and completely misrepresented me at every opportunity. Your actions are incredibly disingenuous, your reasoning is an abject failure, and I see no reason to continue this conversation.

[NoahsFarce]

By the way, this mirrors a Theist vs Atheist debate. Vegans are the theists here.

That's pretty hilarious, since I see it as the exact opposite. All I have done is point out flaws in your logic and reasoning. You have thrown out multiple straw man arguments, threw out naturalistic fallacies, professed your "faith" (believing things purely for cultural reasons), claimed objective morality exists (and claimed I believe it for some reason, probably due to your failure to understand what objective morality actually is), evidenced a complete failure to understand logic, and completely misrepresented me at every opportunity. Your actions are incredibly disingenuous, your reasoning is an abject failure, and I see no reason to continue this conversation.

In other words, you think what you think and aren't open for debate so you quit.

I NEVER once said I believe in objective morality. I said SOME might be and others NOT. You are the only one that displayed a belief in objective morality. Your comment about how you would rule-out meat consumption if you had that power is an example of this. If you do not believe meat consumption is objectively immoral, then why would you ban such an act?

I don't misinterpret your comments nor do I misunderstand it. I pose questions to you in attempt to understand your position. Instead, I get opinions stated as fact. You spit a factory farming statistic at me insinuating that all of these factories are bad. I responded with how I think a more appropriate statistic would be one that shows how many of this majority do things like ram cows with forklifts.

I never once used a naturalistic argument to defend my position. I said it MIGHT be good enough as sometimes it is good enough. A naturalistic argument is good enough when it comes to why we should copulate. So I ask you why it's not good enough for meat consumption?

It is YOU that speaks in absolutes. Not me. I have said it over and over that Vegans very well might hold the more moralistic ground. I have no issue whatsoever with that. My issue is with Vegans like you who try to accuse meat eaters like me of being immoral. That is what you're saying after all. If you view the act of killing animals for flesh as immoral, then you must view me as immoral for consuming this meat or killing the animal myself.

No, the theist is still you. We are BORN OMNIVORES. You vegans go completely against this natural explanation and indoctrinate your children and others into your belief system. I just continue to be what I was born as and will not change until I see solid evidence showing me that I'm being immoral for consuming meat.

You have not showed me that evidence. As I've said, evidence was enough for me to leave religion. I'm fully prepared to stop eating meat if you show me the same level of evidence.

"Believing things purely for cultural reasons..."

Way to not read my explanation on this matter. Again a theistic tactic. Picking and choosing parts of comments to twist them to your purpose. Putting words into my mouth...

[Reforged]

On a side-note, did anyone else want to tap the hell out of Velma in the Scooby-Doo movie?
I know its not really important in this discussion but I do feel its a subject thats needs to be brought up at least once on this forum and now is as good a time as any since I am suddenly reminded of it.
Sorry, carry on with your debate on eating habits. Its very interesting.

[Minimalist]

I picked this up from a pal on another board:

Vegetarian – person who believes it is your moral responsibility to provide him with a nut roast when he comes to dinner but won’t give you a steak when you go to his.