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Was Hagar an Egyptian woman?
#1
Was Hagar an Egyptian woman?
We are faced here with a problem for biblical scholars who are not used in solving problems! So, let’ see what can we accomplish by our non-educated brains.

Please note that:
[J] stands for Yahwist writer c. 950 BCE
[E] stands for Elohist writer c. 850 BCE
[P] stands for Priestly writer c. 500 BCE

Abram left Ur for Canaan.

Genesis 12:5 [P] And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.

Obviously they had with them slaves gotten in Haran.

12:10 [J] And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land.

12:16 [J] And he entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he asses, and menservants, and maidservants, and she asses, and camels.

We are to understand that it was here that Hagar was given to Sarai as her maidservant.

12:20 [J] And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him: and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had.

They were driven off Egypt with all that they had. And most probably with all that they acquired in Egypt.

13:12 [P] Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched his tent toward Sodom.

16:3[P] And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.

Strange that they did not have Canaanite maids after having been ten years in Canaan.

16:11 [J] And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction 12[J] And he will be a wild man (literally a wild-donkey-man or a wild donkey of a man); his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

A wild man is a primitive man.
Ancient peoples were obsessed with primitive men whom they considered not human. The best description of such a man is the description of Enkidu in the Epic of Gilgamesh.
Seth, the god-killing god of the Egyptians, is the representative of the primitive men whom the gods regarded animals and killed:

When the confederates of Seth come and change their forms into animals, they are slain in the presence of these gods and are being smitten down, their blood flowing among them. These things are caused by the judges who are in Busiris (The Book of the Dead, Ch. 18)

21:21 [E] And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

The wild man dwelt in the wilderness and his mother managed that his wife would be of her own tribe/race.

There is, however, reference to one more primitive, extremely hairy man: Esau.

25:25 [J] And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau.

In order that Jacob gets his father’s blessing instead of Esau; Rebekah, their mother, disguised Jacob to feel as hairy as Esau to the touch of the blind Isaac.

27:15 [J] And Rebekah took goodly raiment of her eldest son Esau, which were with her in the house, and put them upon Jacob her younger son 16 And she put the skins of the kids of the goats upon his hands, and upon the smooth of his neck.

Esau knew that Isaac did not want his sons to marry Canaanite women:

28:6 [P] When Esau saw that Isaac had blessed Jacob, and sent him away to Padanaram, to take him a wife from thence; and that as he blessed him he gave him a charge, saying, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan; 7[P] And that Jacob obeyed his father and his mother, and was gone to Padanaram; 8[P] And Esau seeing that the daughters of Canaan pleased not Isaac his father; 9[P]Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took, besides the wives whom he had, Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebaioth, to be his wife.

But he did take wives of the daughters of Canaan:

36:2 [P] Esau took his wives of the daughters of Canaan; Adah the daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Aholibamah the daughter of Anah the daughter of Zibeon the Hivite; 3 [P] And Bashemath Ishmael's daughter, sister of Nebajoth.

The “primitive” Esau married Bashemath, the daughter of the “primitive” Ishmael who was a Canaanite woman instead of being an Egyptian woman as one would have expected since her grand mother, was Hagar the Egyptian, and her mother was an anonymous Egyptian woman.

Hagar is reported as being an Egyptian woman in:
16:1 by J,
16:3 by P,
21:9 by E
25:12 by either P or the final redactor.

The Yahwist writer was himself a redactor too. He edited and recorded stories that reached him after having been transmitted orally for tens of thousands of years; we are therefore entitled to suspect that initially Hagar was reported as being a Canaanite woman; in which case the book of Genesis presents the Canaanites as a distinct race without calling them Nephilim, as it happens with the book of Numbers:

Numbers 13:32 And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature 33 And there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, which come of the Nephilim: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

The Nephilim, the indigenous inhabitants of Canaan along with the men of a great stature are not considered human beings but animals, since they are not regarded as the inhabitants of the land (the Hebrew verb “Yashav” to sit, dwell, applies to humans only).

In column 3 line 2 in the Ipuwer text there is a sentence that reads:

There are no people anywhere [/b](Miriam Lichtheim translating)

Nn \ ms \ wn \ rmT \ m \ st \ nb
Not \ surely \ exist \ people \ in \ place \ any

But the land in question is full of the [primitive] slaves who revolted and drove out their [divine] aristocratic masters.

Conclusion: Hagar was a Canaanite woman, a Nephilim woman.

P.S. This thread is devoted to my omniscient friends Epimethean and Rhythm. Big Grin
"Culture is memory"

Yuri Lotman


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#2
RE: Was Hagar an Egyptian woman?
What???
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#3
RE: Was Hagar an Egyptian woman?
And in Star Wars, Luke Skywalker was from Tatooine.

Fictional characters can be from anywhere.
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#4
RE: Was Hagar an Egyptian woman?
(June 21, 2012 at 11:32 am)Minimalist Wrote: And in Star Wars, Luke Skywalker was from Tatooine.

Fictional characters can be from anywhere.

The point is what the fiction maker believed of his fiction characters. If the Priestly writer or the Elohist or any redactor changed some elements of the original story (fiction or not does not matter), then there is something he did not like or he did not like others to read.

Fiction does not use real persons but describes real situations and events that took place in the time of the writer or in the past. When someone does not want others to know about those events or actions, then there is something real behind fiction.
"Culture is memory"

Yuri Lotman


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#5
RE: Was Hagar an Egyptian woman?
Like Adam and Eve, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon cum temple, Israel both person and kingdom, Babylonian captivity and all the rest of the characters and things in the OT, Hagar is fictional.
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#6
RE: Was Hagar an Egyptian woman?
(June 21, 2012 at 1:02 pm)dtango Wrote: ...
The point is what the fiction maker believed of his fiction characters.

An author believes nothing of his characters. He invents them and makes them ALL they are.

Quote:If the Priestly writer or the Elohist or any redactor changed some elements of the original story (fiction or not does not matter),

What original story? Why are you assuming something which is not evidence? That is not rational. Trying to create an argument in favor of a desired conclusion is not a rational process. It is a logical fallacy.

Quote:then there is something he did not like or he did not like others to read.

All the Y and P crap is no more than an excuse to make the OT as old as possible as it separates them in time and calls them traditions to imply they are old.

Rather you get two or three writers on the job and a week later an editor puts them together. The simplest explanation is always best.

Quote:Fiction does not use real persons but describes real situations and events that took place in the time of the writer or in the past. When someone does not want others to know about those events or actions, then there is something real behind fiction.

Were I do apply your description to Starship Troopers or the Wizard of Oz what conclusion would I reach? There is no basis to assume there is anything real behind any story. The search for the kernel of truth starts with the assumption there is on in the first place. Just where in Kansas is Oz?
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#7
RE: Was Hagar an Egyptian woman?
(January 7, 2013 at 9:13 pm)A_Nony_Mouse Wrote: Like Adam and Eve, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon cum temple, Israel both person and kingdom, Babylonian captivity and all the rest of the characters and things in the OT, Hagar is fictional.
Do you ACTUALLY believe that the original Jewish temple, the kingdom of Israel, and the Babylonian captivity were fictional?
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