The Stage is Yours.

[Taqiyya Mockingbird]

Voldemort V Sauron

[Rayaan]

Ok from this I am taking it that the Quran teaches that Allah is the author of evil:

The Quran calls Allah scheming (makr). S. 3:54; cf. 8:30 That is: deceptive

Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive Allah, but it is He Who deceives them. And when they stand up for As-Salat (the prayer), they stand with laziness and to be seen of men, and they do not remember Allah but little. S. 4:142 Hilali-Khan

And (the unbelievers) schemed and planned, and Allah schemed also, and the best of schemers is Allah. S. 3:54

[snip]

This perspective on the Quran is endorsed by Muslim theologians. It isn't possible to attribute the Christian God as deceptive.

There may be more. Stay tuned.

I've already heard that one before and the answer to that is pretty simple. Thanks for giving me an easy one.

First of all, those verses that you quoted about Allah scheming are amongst the revelations that were given to Muhammad when Allah was instructing him in the manners of planning and engaging in military actions. In those verses, Allah basically affirms that He will suffice, aid, support, and help the believers against the evil plans of their enemies and He will help them even if their enemies are more numerous and have greater supplies. All the Quranic verses that you quoted have a historical background in them just like many other verses. There is more about the period of revelation, the historical background, the theme and purpose, and the interconnections between them for all the chapters of the Quran at the link below:

Maududi's Chapter Introductions to the Quran

Coming to the meaning of the verses, the words "khayru al-makireena" in verse 3:54 means that Allah is the "best of planners" (khayru = best of; al-makireena = the ones who plan secretly or in a subtle manner). It can also be translated as "best of schemers" as it appears in many translations of the Quran. So, I will now post both the transliteration and the translation of verse 3:54 which talks about Allah's scheming against certain non-believers along with notes to explain what they mean. I have used different colors in the transliteration and the translation just to indicate the corresponding meanings.

Transliteration:
"Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena." (3:54)

Translation:
"And they [the unbelievers] planned secretly, and Allah planned secretly also, and Allah is the best of planners." (3:54)

Both transliteration and translation with notes:

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Wamakaroo: "And they planned secretly"
Note: "Wa" means "and." "Makaroo" is derived from the root M-K-R and it means planning secretly or in a subtle manner or to scheme. And it is a verb in the past tense because it is an action that has already been completed. It means: the action of planning secretly or scheming happened by the subject (third person plural).

Wamakara: "And He (Allah) planned secretly also"
Note: "Wa" means "and." "Makara" is derived from the root M-K-R and it means planning secretly or in a subtle manner or to scheme. The word is a verb in the past tense because it is an action that has already been completed. It means: the action of planning secretly or scheming done by the subject (third person singular pointing to Allah which is coming next).

Allahu: Allah
Note: Allah is the subject of the previous word.

waAllahu: "And Allah"

khayru: "better of" or "best of"
Note: The root is KH-Y-R and it means choice. It is also understood as "good" or as "better" because one would chose the good over the bad. In the context of this particular verse, however, the word "khayru" means "better of" or "best of."

Almakireena: "The ones who plan secretly" or "The planners."
Note: The root is M-K-R and it means planning secretly or in a subtle manner or scheming. So, the almakireena are the ones who plan in a secret manner or those who scheme.

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That explained, I have never come across a single verse in the Quran that says that Allah is a deceiver or that He is the best of deceivers.

The important thing is that there is a difference between scheming/planning vs. deceiving. Scheming means a systematic plan of action while deceiving involves lying or trickery. The Quran uses the former, which is scheming (or planning), and if you read about the background of these verses, you will find that Allah was scheming against certain tribes and leaders of Mecca who planned to assassinate the Prophet and his followers in order to stop the spread of Islam.

There is indeed a verse that says that Allah deceived a certain group of people, and it is in the verse which says, "Indeed, the hypocrites seek to deceive Allah, but it is He Who deceives them. And when they stand up for the prayer (As-Salaat), they stand with laziness and to be seen by men, and they do not remember Allah, except a little" (4:142) which you quoted above. The word used for "decieve" in this particular verse is "yukhadiAAoona." The root is KH-D-Ain and it means revealing something and concealing another or doing something tricky for an effect of getting an advantage of someone. So, this word in the Quran can be conceptually taken to cover tricking and/or misleading someone or hiding some important issues.

However, the message of that verse does not mean that Allah is a "deceiver." What it simply means is that if one wants to play tricky games with Allah, then Allah is on top of the game and He causes their own deceptions to backfire on themselves. He will derail their plans and turn them against themselves.

As for all the verses about Allah scheming ("makara"), which I explained earlier, again, they are in the context of those who tried to assassinate one of Allah's prophets, in this case the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). During that time, many of the Arab pagans, Christians, Romans, Jews, and many others tried to plot against Muhammad to kill him and to bring an end to Islam. They planned and schemed as much as possible to complete their mission of assassinating the Prophet. However, as mentioned in the verses that you quoted, Allah was scheming against them also - and He is the best of schemers (khayru almakireena) - and thus all their plans and tricks were a failure no matter how much they tried. Allah has planned against their plans and He has completely derailed them every single time in order to save His last messenger. This left all the human schemers confused and deceived.


Now, this is what all of the above boils down to:

Allah does scheme and deceive, but he does that for a good reason and He does that only when others are scheming against Him (indirectly), such as by trying to harm Muslims or trying to kill the Prophet. Allah schemed to derail their evil plans and to protect His messenger from danger. In other words, Allah was helping out his Prophet and the good people by getting one over the bad guys who were persistently trying to kill the Prophet. So, I don't see any evil in that kind of scheming because Allah was doing that for a good reason.

All those verses simply mean that Allah is best at planning in secret and at outmaneuvering anyone who schemes against Him and His messengers. Nothing evil about that, IMO.

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If you have more stuff like that, then don't hesitate to post them. Just bring 'em to me. I'll pick up on your other comments at a later post or maybe I will continue from here depending on your responses that proceed after this. There's no hurry for me.

Also, any of you guys reading this thread can ask me questions and/or post your arguments if you want to. This discussion doesn't have to be just between me and fr0d0.

[Taqiyya Mockingbird]

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However, the message of that verse does not mean that Allah is a "deceiver".

"The fact that he lies doesn't make him a liar".

Taqiyya, taqiyya, taqiyya.

Frodo picks up the comb, scores!

[Taqiyya Mockingbird]

Allah does scheme and deceive…

However, the message of that verse does not mean that Allah is a "deceiver".

[Cinjin]

As long as Rayann and Frodo aren't walking around with signs like this - I don't give a shit what they believe.




To all the religious twits of the world:
Believe all the stupid shit you want, but when you start walking around like a fucktard with a sign that says the idiocy that this sign says .... well, I say the rest of us have the right to beat the jesus outta you for being such a worthless piece of garbage.


MHO of course.

[Tempus]

Computer freaks This guy hates everyone. He could've saved space by saying "I only like people who are [insert desired qualities]". Instead, he made a very inefficient, unwieldy sign which makes me SICK.

[Taqiyya Mockingbird]

Jews make him sick.

Racists make him sick.


....yeah.....

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...oh but he doesn't specifically mention atheists...hmmmm...




ETA: you know, he doesn't seem to be exhibiting any physical symptoms, so I must conclude that he is referring to his mental illness that is triggered by the presence and/or existence of those he cites.

Not sure I have any problems with that reasoning...

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During that time, many of the Arab pagans, Christians, Romans, Jews, and many others tried to plot against Muhammad to kill him and to bring an end to Islam.

You left out the clause at the end of that sentence: "... , with its mandate to exterminate all who refuse to accept it."

[Rayaan]

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Allah does scheme and deceive…

However, the message of that verse does not mean that Allah is a "deceiver".

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This is as if you told a lie, but it may not be fair to label you as a "Liar" as one of your attributes if this is not something that you do frequently.

Same thing in the case of the verses that I talked about:

Allah deceives sometimes and does so only to certain people (i.e. those who try to plot against Him) - and for a good reason - but it is not correct to label him as a "Deceiver."

[Mystic]

What exactly do you mean when you say "for morality to be objective". This seems to be what motivates your entire argument. In what sense do you feel morality must be objective?

What is moral actually seems quite contingent to me. We are the only sapient species we know so it is pretty hard to know whether what we deem to be moral must apply to all such creatures. (Apparently we don't think it applies to non-sapient creatures since we harvest these for food without batting an eye.)

If we were not a gregarious/pack sort of animal, what counts as moral might be very different. If we lived an orangutan like existence only meeting our own kind very rarely to mate, our moral concerns would be different.

If we were the only creature on a planet we would have no choice but to be cannibals and it would never occur to us that there was any option but to eat one another. If such creatures were sapient, it is doubtful that our sense of morality would fit their circumstances very well at all ... and yet they may well have their own moral sense.

I suggest that what is moral is contingent on the nature and circumstances of the creatures involved. If there was no life in the universe morality would have no existence either. It wouldn't float around as a disembodied potential. In a universe full of life, the form morality takes might well vary.

You mention rape as a universally, morally repugnant act. But for snails it is the only way they mate. There is no courtship or consent. As hermaphrodites when any ready to mate snail meets any other snail, it's on. Each impregnates the other as well as shooting rather nasty (and sometimes fatal) barbs into each other. Now, did God create an abomination in the snail, or do moral considerations vary with the creature involved? Do you think we are the only creature on this planet for which morality is in play?

I would say many animals have things that resemble what we consider morals, but really, should not be classified as morals, because they are acting on instinct. For example, they care about one another often, but this caring is not thought about, why they should do it, if they should do it, it's simply instinct.

Likewise their mating ways are all based on instinct. They do experience love, caring, bondage, and I understand even have the "I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine" approach...but what's the difference with humans?

Here is the difference. Our conscious is more developed, that we can question, "why should we act on these feelings"...or we even get to chose how we feel to a degree over issues, and we make judgements over issues...as our conscious is more developed, it needs our morality to be based on something higher then simple instinct developed by evolution...For there is no reason why we should give in to evolution instincts, no reason why we should care about well being of human race which is often the fundamental component of an ethical system, but we know there is a reason, there is something commanding us to do so, and not just "I feel I want to" way, but "you really should do" way. Animals don't think why they do what they do, they don't need to, their concious is not that developed.

So animals I would say don't have objective morality, because they simply acting on instincts, even though some of these are love, compassion, empathy, etc...

However, you are right that morality is often situational, but this doesn't deter it from being objective. For x situation with y factors, z should do c and would be morally wrong not to do c. This an example of an objective moral fact. But without the situation, it would not be universal.

So going back to the premise, it would mean God cannot determine for x situation, with y factors, z should do c...rather he must always know that in x situation, with y factors, z should do c.

So it is dependant on situations, but I would say, it's possible we have "instinct" to rape, and feel nothing wrong with it, but it's not possible to be given moral conscious at the level we have it, and then feeling that it is ok, to the same moral fabric we have that makes other things wrong.

As for our moral conscious, the level we have it, which is not like instinct of animals, it needs to be based on an eternal basis and linked to a metaphysical absolute authority. Otherwise, it will appear as a delusion and there would be no reason to give in to it, because we don't simply have to give in to instincts.

[fr0d0]

If Allah does decieve (has decieved), then it is something that he does. God doesn't change, so this is part of what makes him him.

"And verily, those before them did deceive/scheme (makara), but all deception/scheming is Allah's (falillahi al-makru). He knows what every person earns, and the disbelievers will know who gets the good end. S. 13:42"

"Qurtubi observes that some scholars have considered the words ‘best of schemers’ to be one of Allah’s beautiful names. Thus one would pray, ‘O Best of Schemers, scheme for me!’ Qurtubi also reports that the Prophet used to pray, ‘O Allah, scheme for me, and do not scheme against me!’ (Qurtubi, IV, pp. 98-99; cf. Zamakhshari, I, p. 366)." (Ibid., p. 166)

The Quran states that Allah actually raises wicked individuals to deceive and scheme:

Even so have we placed in every city, ringleaders of its wicked ones, to scheme therein (liyamkuroo): but only against themselves shall they scheme (yamkuroona)! and they know it not. S. 6:123


Allah commands people to do evil so that he can then have a reason to destroy them:

And when We would destroy a township We send commandment to its folk who live at ease, AND AFTERWARD they commit abomination therein, and so the Word (of doom) hath effect for it, and we annihilate it with complete annihilation. S. 17:16

Next wrod: "kayd": to deceive/beguile/circumvent, means of evading/eluding

Allah is portrayed as stooping down to the level of the deceivers and liars by acting like them in his use of guile:

They are devising guile (ya keedoona kaydan), and I am devising guile (Wa akeedu kaydan). S. 86:15-16

Next word: "khida/khuda/khada" : To hide/conceal, deceive or outwit, pretend

They (think to) deceive Allah (Yukhadiaaoona) and those who believe, while they only deceive (yakhdaaoona) themselves, and perceive (it) not! S. 2:9

And if they would deceive thee (yakhdaaooka), then lo! Allah is Sufficient for thee. He it is Who supporteth thee with His help and with the believers, S. 8:6


Satan accused Allah of misleading or deceiving him:

He said: Now, because Thou hast sent me astray (aghwaytanee), verily I shall lurk in ambush for them on Thy Right Path. S. 7:16

[Iblis (Satan)] said: "O my Lord! Because you misled me (aghwaytanee), I shall indeed adorn the path of error for them (mankind) on the earth, and I shall mislead (walaoghwiyannahum) them all. S. 15:39


What makes this last reference interesting is that Satan promises to do to mankind what Allah did to him, namely, pervert/deceive/mislead people.


Here is a text where the Quran acknowledges that the Devil was right in that last bit, since Allah does pervert/deceive/mislead people:

And my sincere counsel will not profit you, if I desire to counsel you sincerely, if God desires to pervert you (yughwiyakum); He is your Lord, and unto Him you shall be returned.' S. 11:34


You may contend that Allah only deceives unbelievers who deserve it. The problem with this assertion is that Muslim scripture teaches that Allah doesn’t merely deceive unbelievers but also his followers.

eg: Allah deceived Muhammad into thinking that the fighting men at Badr were fewer in number than they actually were:

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When Allah showed them to you in your dream as few; and if He had shown them to you as many you would certainly have become weak-hearted and you would have disputed about the matter, but Allah saved (you); surely He is the Knower of what is in the breasts. And when He showed them to you, when you met, as few in your eyes and He made you to appear little in their eyes, in order that Allah might bring about a matter which was to be done, and to Allah are all affairs returned. S. 8:43-44

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According to the Quran Jesus wasn’t crucified but Allah made it seem that way, thereby foisting Biblical Christianity on the masses:

And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)]: S. 4:157

Allah lied to everyone about the crucifixion to fool them into believing the wrong thing?!