Poltergeist

[dagda]

This topic is named poltergeist because I hope to create a debate on the nature of the poltergeist phenomenon. As this thread is about poltergeist, let me say straight off that any post relating to ghosts (unless linked in some solid way to poltergeist) I will ignore.

I am aware that many of you may not know the difference between poltergeist and ghosts. I will attempt to enlighten you:

1.Poltergeist tend to haunt people whilst the common ghost will haunt a geographical location.
2.Poltergeist tend to have a shelf life of a few weeks or months (although there are cases of longer inhabitation) where as a ghost can remain active for hundreds if not thousands of years.
3.Poltergeist tend to be more violent, but also have a much smaller bag of tricks e.g. They can not go beyond throwing things around the room and banging on the walls with the occasional angry text message now and again.
4.Poltergeist do not appear to be dead souls/spirits. In other words they do not seem to have ever inhabitation a body.

The following is a copy and paste exercise. The work is mine but I am to lazy to type it all out again.




The South Sheilds Poltergeist is perhaps the best documented in recent history. Unlike most poltergeist, 'Sammy'-as it called itself-was not shy or retiring. It violently attacked a member of the household-Marc-on various occasions-at least one of which was in front of the camera.

The phenomenon began in 2005. Marc, Marianne and Robert (Marianne's three year old son) lived in a house in South Sheilds. They first began to notice strange things happening such as doors closing themselves and strange noises coming from Robert's drawers. They called in the investigators in June 2006 as the phenomenon intensified.

The investigators first suspected fraud. They ruled out Marianne as she seemed genuinely terrified but thought that Marc may be involved. They latter ruled this out as they began to witnesses the phenomenon with their own eyes and photograph/record many of them. They concluded that Marc could not stage the phenomenon (e.g. scars appearing and disappearing from his body in front of the camera and independently moving objects).

What make this case so special is the sheer volume of data. At one point 20 credible witnesses saw the phenomenon occur and there is plenty of photographic and video footage. The threatening text messages Marianne received from dead phones and the mysterious disappearance of Robert for short periods of time (only to reappear raped tightly in his bed sheet in a cupboard or under a glass table) all bear testament to the often laughed at poltergeist phenomenon.

References




http://www.mikehallowell.com/shieldspolt/page4.html


http://www.mikehallowell.com/shieldspolt/page11.html


http://monkeywah.typepad.com/paranormali...shiel.html

Paranormal Magazine (various issues)

From this case and various others I have drawn up a hypothesis; at times of stress-both mentally and physically-some people can create an independent entity which carries out a sub-concious-or even concious-desire in a twisted deviation from the original intent. For instance, in this case Marc was the step-dad of Robert. Perhaps Robert accidentally created a poltergeist due to the stress and anxiety caused by this disturbance in the household at such a delicate age-Bowlby (1961) showed that this can have serious natural consequences for development, but perhaps we are overlooking the more 'super'-natural.

[Tiberius]

various occasions-at least one of which was in front of the camera.
...
there is plenty of photographic and video footage.

I wouldn't be a very good skeptic if I didn't ask you to provide the camera footage and "plenty" of photographic and video footage.

Your first two links don't seem to feature any of it (I believe I mentioned this before in another topic). Your third link does not work at all.

Oh, and since this doesn't have anything to do with atheism I've moved it to the "religion" forum. The occult / spiritualism is pretty much all religion anyway.

[Samson]

Poltergeist and Ghost have one main thing in common......They are both equally made up.......

You're a big fan of "Ghost Hunters" aren't you???

Hey, one thing is for sure....I love the 80's flick Poltergeist...."THERE HEREEEEEEEE".......

[Dotard]

Proof or STFU.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

"Fuck ME! Did you see that Ethel? Grandpa's clock just fell right off the wall for NO REASON! What i could have caused it? I don't know,it MUST be ghosts. Noisy buggers aren't they."


OR

"Whats' that light in the sky,and that NOISE! Oh ,it just hit Ogg,he's gone all dead and kinda crispy.It MUST be an angry God"

Classic arguments from incredulity. What such people are actually saying ; "I'm too stupid,ignorant and unimaginative to think of anything else,and too arrogant or fearful to admit I don't know. So,I say God did it,or ghosts,or the fairies the bottom of the garden. "

Are there such things people call poltergeists? Probably,it seems fairly well documented and has been reported in many disparate cultures..



BUT: Such events DO NOT prove existence of ghost (being the spirit or soul of a deceased person) nor proof of the existence of psychic energy or sexual energy which can effect the physical world kinetically..(poltergeists are often associated with the presence of pubescent children)

It seems to me the phenomena could be used as sneaky way to slither into an argument for the existence of the divine. I'm not suggesting that's Dagda's intent,I think he's too direct,and not that devious. It's the kind of thing I would do.

[dagda]

I thought this would happen. Let me say again that I am NOT arguing for the existence of ghosts.

As my links seem to have went downhill since I first read their site, I will change the argument to the existence of poltergeist on a more general scale rather than arguing around a specific case study.

Now Samson that is a pretty un-scientific statement. I mean you seem to have reached your stance on the existence of poltergeist merely because it is more convenient for you to believe all poltergeist cases are fake. Stop me if I am wrong here, but the lack of explanation for your conclusion leaves me with little choice but to conclude that you have not researched the topic at all before you reached your present stance.

I agree that many so-called poltergeist cases are the result of mis-interpretation of events, suggestion and wishful thinking. However, I also agree that the poltergeist phenomenon is as well documented as any phenomenon which has had to rely on the laughable attempts of part-time 'ghost hunters' for evaluation. I think the huge volume of data at least deserves a scientific study or two (as of yet I can think of no truly impartial study into the phenomenon).

I think to claim that there is a lack of evidence for psychic energy is a little unfair. There have simply has been no research into the phenomenon that I can recall-although there have been investigations into Chi which have had mixed results. The lack of research into psychic energy in relation to poltergeist means that trying to argue for or against its existence is theoretical at best. Do not mistake me, the lack of research does not constitute a belief in the existence of psychic energy, but neither does it constitute a lack of belief in the said phenomenon. A neutral stance is the best we can hope for considering the circumstances.

Dotard what evidence would you desire?

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

I think to claim that there is a lack of evidence for psychic energy is a little unfair

Really? OK,show me some.

[Tiberius]

I will change the argument to the existence of poltergeist on a more general scale rather than arguing around a specific case study.

No.

If you want to argue the existence of something, you must provide evidence. You originally started with one case study, and I asked for evidence. If you had given it, I would have asked for further case studies. This is how science works (it has to be repeatable). You don't get to say "well screw the case studies" and think that you can simply argue poltergeists into existence.

If there were evidence for poltergeists, finding it should be easy, so please find it for us. I'm talking case studies (multiple ones), videos of poltergeists, photos (although photos are easier to fake), etc. What I don't want is some sob story from a family who could have ulterior motives (i.e. money / fame). I want objective evidence, and given that you claim there is loads, I don't see why it is such a difficult request.

[Dotard]

Dotard what evidence would you desire?

Adrian answered the question for me. See above.

[dagda]

I know ESP is not technically related to the poltergeist phenomenon, but it does constitute evidence of some form of psychic energy. The Ganzfeld and Auto-Ganzfeld techniques are used under laboratory conditions to try and replicate ESP. Both techniques are relatively similar but basically three rooms are set up. In one the receiver sits in a comfortable room. In a second the sender sits down and watches a video clip/card appear and attempts to communicate what they see psychically to the receiver. In a third room an experimenter records what the receiver thinks the clip/card is-without knowing which clip/card is being shown to the sender. This eliminates bias on the part of the experimenter. There is a choice of 5 cards/clips which can be shown to the sender hence statistically the receiver should only have a 20% success rate if no psychic force exists.

Kathy Dalton (1997) used the Ganzfeld technique on 100 actors, musicians, artists etc. Overall there was a 47% success rate on behalf of the receiver. This is almost double what statistics demand should be the results, and, indeed, in the case of the musicians, the success rate was 56%. The chances of this happening by chance are 10 million-to-one.

This would be remarkable in itself, but the Dalton experiment was building on a long history of Ganzfeld and Auto-Ganzfeld experiments. For instance, 28 Ganzfeld experiments were conducted between 1974 and 1981. All together they have a mean success rate of 35%. There have also been 10 Auto-Ganzfeld experiments between 1983 and 1989. These recorded a 32% success rate for the receiver. Although these are less than the Dalton experiment, they are also quite a bit higher than the base line of 25%. That these kind of psychic experiences seem to have to do with the right hemisphere of the brain (Anthony Peak: Michael Persinger) could explain why those who are involved in the arts (who show more right hemisphere activity) record higher readings.

A 2001 study into the validity of the Ganzfeld techniques found them a valid and scientific method.

Added to this scientific method is the statistic that around 50% of the population will, at some point in their life, have an experience which can be described as ESP.

There I think that covers both padriac's and Adrian's comments. Scientific, repeatable studies into psychic phenomenon. I changed from the case study because, obviously, it was a field study hence could not be replicated in the laboratory-like most field studies; they sacrifice scientific validity for ecological validity.