Changing Someone's Belief

[Godscreated]

@ FallentoReason, I've read through the posts, and you are arrogant in your belief that others would in any way have the same opinion about life as you believe they would, if they unconverted. You are also arrogant about the fact you can change the way your friend believes, you've done nothing to change my mind, nor will you ever be able to, God holds me in His hand, why, because outside of the scriptures I know God is real. I did come to faith through scriptures, I've come to belief because of scriptures, I know God through actual experiences with Him. What I read in what your friend said was this, tell me so I can pray in specific ways for you, He/he knows you are still hanging onto those old beliefs, One is waiting for the right time, the other will pray in His will at the right time. This you know and this is what scares you.

[KnockEmOuttt]

FallentoReason, don't be afraid to tell this guy why you don't believe in god. If he's that stuck in his ways, it won't matter what you say. If he is actually curious (which I don't doubt he is) and it does change his mind, I'm sure his world won't be shattered. Many atheists find purpose in life without god. Anyone who says otherwise is just trying to scare you into believing.

[KichigaiNeko]

Agreed KEO. I was just thinking...what if HE is the one who is trying to change YOUR belief? And IF he later changes his belief what-if he comes back to you and asks "Why. Didn't. You. Say. Something"

[FallentoReason]

You are also arrogant about the fact you can change the way your friend believes

Why do you blindly judge me? I've been careful to say 'potentially' damage his faith. Doesn't your book say not to judge people? Jeez...

He/he knows you are still hanging onto those old beliefs, One is waiting for the right time, the other will pray in His will at the right time. This you know and this is what scares you.

You're dreaming.

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what if HE is the one who is trying to change YOUR belief?

But of course that's what the underlying motive is. I wouldn't be surprised if he thinks he's invincible and whatever I bring up he'll easily respond to.

1) We're all horrible sinners
2) The meaning of the cross
3) Fear of judgement day

These are the things he subtly brought up during the conversation. He's using scare tactics to make me convert.

[KichigaiNeko]

what if HE is the one who is trying to change YOUR belief?

But of course that's what the underlying motive is. I wouldn't be surprised if he thinks he's invincible and whatever I bring up he'll easily respond to.

1) We're all horrible sinners
2) The meaning of the cross
3) Fear of judgement day

These are the things he subtly brought up during the conversation. He's using scare tactics to make me convert.

So then TELL him your findings. No scientist should be afraid of that!!

1) There is no sin. Only bigotry and blind faith.

2) That one should worship and desire to escape to Death? Please explain the "sin" of suicide?

3) YOU are the only one who can judge YOU (accurately) ... is he saying he is afraid of himself and his own criticisms? (this opens a HUGE can of worms = What is he /she hiding?)

How old is this Mr/ Ms Invincible?

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Finally FTR, I do NOT BELIEVE anything. I strive to understand.

So far NO religious doctrine / belief system has ticked ALL the boxes and lamely suggests that I "Just have Faith" ... This is not enough for me and I am curious ....Oh so much more curious ...about the world I find myself in and the people I have to interact with.

Just WHAT makes it all work?

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[Simon Moon]

What I read in what your friend said was this, tell me so I can pray in specific ways for you, He/he knows you are still hanging onto those old beliefs, One is waiting for the right time, the other will pray in His will at the right time. This you know and this is what scares you.

Oh please.

Yeah, because atheists really believe, deep down. Even those that never believed. Even those that used to be Hindu or other religion.

Let me ask you a question. Do you really believe it is any more difficult for atheists to disbelieve in the Christian god than any other god? Do you really believe that we're constantly fighting off the belief in the Christian god? Like, we're constantly holding it at bay?

If so, get over it.

[Faith No More]

Let's try and analyse the situation in its purest form. From experience on this forum, talking about individuals that I know but that you guys don't know is very hard.. in other words there's more to it than what I said in the OP. So I guess the thing I want to discuss is us being an influence that could potentially change the course of someone's life.

I do realize that the stituation is more complex than you are able to convey. I do, however, think you need to reflect on your own wording here, because ultimately all you can be is an influence. You wouldn't be forcing him to do anything; You would simply be sharing what you have discovered.

I can only speak from personal experience, and I told him this, that when I woke up that day and realised I didn't believe anymore it was initially thrilling because it was a whole new sensation that I've never felt before--being freed of those shackles that defined my life. Now I think I'm haunted by the implications of what I believe to be the truth, that we are just a phenomena in this empty universe and will die. I know that we can find meaning for ourselves but it's not the same as waking up everyday thinking that you're going to meet your maker and live forever. Whether true or not, that is something that I believe is rooted deep within us which is the instinct to want to survive. Believers have essentially 'figured out' how to avoid eternal death, whether true or not. That is what they believe hands down and ultimately I think taking that away from someone is just as bad as physically harming them...

It sounds as if your reluctance to speak to your friend has a lot to do with your own stuggles after deconversion, but one thing to remember is that you have only recently deconverted. Relgion isn't something you can go your whole life relying on and suddenly just be fine when you stop believing in it. It takes time to rediscover the beauty of this life on your own.

I think Kichi made a good point, however, that your friend may very well be looking to change your beliefs. I'm sure you could determine whether it his or your belifs he is concerned with just by asking a few questions and listening to his responses.

As far as the ethical considerations of influencing someone's beliefs, I think as long as you don't peddle your beliefs to someone else as truth, it is fine to tell them what you believe even if you fear it will influence them. If your friend is sincere in his endeavor and truly values your take on Christianity, simply let him know that what you are telling him is the conclusion you have reached, and tell him that he must himself weigh the information to come to his own conclusion. If you're worried about presenting facts about the gospels and the contruction of the bible, I don't think you should be. Ultimately, only he can decide whether he finds your information credible or not, and if he really wants to cling to his beliefs, he will.

[Minimalist]

Do you really believe it is any more difficult for atheists to disbelieve in the Christian god than any other god?

G-C thinks his god is special.....just like every other fucking moron who runs around waving his god's flag.

[FallentoReason]

I do realize that the stituation is more complex than you are able to convey. I do, however, think you need to reflect on your own wording here, because ultimately all you can be is an influence. You wouldn't be forcing him to do anything; You would simply be sharing what you have discovered.

Ah, touche.

It sounds as if your reluctance to speak to your friend has a lot to do with your own stuggles after deconversion, but one thing to remember is that you have only recently deconverted. Relgion isn't something you can go your whole life relying on and suddenly just be fine when you stop believing in it. It takes time to rediscover the beauty of this life on your own.

I think Kichi made a good point, however, that your friend may very well be looking to change your beliefs. I'm sure you could determine whether it his or your belifs he is concerned with just by asking a few questions and listening to his responses.

As far as the ethical considerations of influencing someone's beliefs, I think as long as you don't peddle your beliefs to someone else as truth, it is fine to tell them what you believe even if you fear it will influence them. If your friend is sincere in his endeavor and truly values your take on Christianity, simply let him know that what you are telling him is the conclusion you have reached, and tell him that he must himself weigh the information to come to his own conclusion. If you're worried about presenting facts about the gospels and the contruction of the bible, I don't think you should be. Ultimately, only he can decide whether he finds your information credible or not, and if he really wants to cling to his beliefs, he will.

I think you've outlined how I should go about it perfectly. Now I guess I need to muster up the mental strength to pull through this conversation we will be having.