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Changing Someone's Belief
#1
Changing Someone's Belief
Last night I carpooled with a Christian friend who is the only theist I personally know that knows about my current beliefs. We have some really interesting conversations about theology and such. Last night though he asked twice about what exactly I saw in Christianity that didn't make it true. Twice I politely avoided the question and said I just didn't feel right going into that.

I've been trying to figure out why I can't do what I do on here in person. Is it because ultimately I fear taking away the happiness religion brings to him? I think it might be. I mean this guy told me in the same night about his 6 year plan to becoming a pastor. It feels downright morally wrong to potentially take away his dreams even if he asked for it.

Both times I told him the above. His opinion was that he sincerely wants to know the truth like I do. He said that if Christianity was wrong then he would be ok with that because then he can live his life according to the truth. But then I told him what truth? The truth that life is essentially meaningless? It just doesn't feel right to bring someone down to that realisation...
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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#2
RE: Changing Someone's Belief
The only thing that gives life "meaning" is the illusion of kissing the Holy Ass for eternity?

What kind of "meaning" is that?
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#3
RE: Changing Someone's Belief
If he is really looking for the truth, in the end, he would eventually be thankful that you led him to that truth. If he actually did say that he would be okay if Christianity is wrong, that may be an indication that he really does want to know what is the truth, because a lot of people, when faced with the idea that their beliefs are untrue, will kick and scream, insisting that whatever they believe to be the truth at that time is actually true. Normally, people are content to keep on believing what they believe as long as they seem to be reaping some benefits, so his statement that he would be okay with it not being true may actually be some sort of cry for help. At least, that's the way I see it.

On another note, it would probably help your friend if you didn't flat out tell him that life is meaningless. While that may be true from a cosmological standpoint, that doesn't mean we can't make our individual lives meaningful. We have to examine our lives and find that meaning for ourselves. Sometimes I find that even the search for meaning gives my life meaning, as if the purpose of my life is to figure out what is meaningful to me.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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#4
RE: Changing Someone's Belief
'FallentoReason'

Yes I recognise that feeling, but after questioning your own motives, think about it in a different way. You are able to live with the truth, is not a bit arrogant of you to think your friend would find it more difficult than you, treat him as an equal give him the good news.
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#5
RE: Changing Someone's Belief
(August 3, 2012 at 9:29 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: Last night I carpooled with a Christian friend who is the only theist I personally know that knows about my current beliefs. We have some really interesting conversations about theology and such. Last night though he asked twice about what exactly I saw in Christianity that didn't make it true. Twice I politely avoided the question and said I just didn't feel right going into that.

I've been trying to figure out why I can't do what I do on here in person. Is it because ultimately I fear taking away the happiness religion brings to him? I think it might be. I mean this guy told me in the same night about his 6 year plan to becoming a pastor. It feels downright morally wrong to potentially take away his dreams even if he asked for it.

Both times I told him the above. His opinion was that he sincerely wants to know the truth like I do. He said that if Christianity was wrong then he would be ok with that because then he can live his life according to the truth. But then I told him what truth? The truth that life is essentially meaningless? It just doesn't feel right to bring someone down to that realisation...

You will not change his beliefs, only he can do that.

If he is already starting to question the basis of his christianity, you can only contribute to it.

And we don't know that life is meaningless, we just realise that it doesn't have the "meaning" that christians think it does.

If he wants to know the "truth" like you do then tell him.

It is not your job to protect him.
[Image: mybannerglitter06eee094.gif]
If you're not supposed to ride faster than your guardian angel can fly then mine had better get a bloody SR-71.
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#6
RE: Changing Someone's Belief
Quote:You are able to live with the truth,


Hold the phone there buckeroo; an agnostic atheist, I make no truth claims. Nor do any atheists I actually know.So far, I've never come across an absolute truth and am beginning to suspect there may not be any.

I have not the slightest interest in trying to change the beliefs of others. Nor will I discus my atheism with a curious believer. That is not because I care about upsetting them. I will explain only by asserting "I do not believe in gods due to a lack of credible evidence" . I will not elaborate or argue the point. This because I have no need or obligation to do so and because its a waste of time.

I will snipe at or argue a little with some theists who insist on infesting atheist forums because their arrogance and purblind ignorance annoys the fuck out of me. Angry
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#7
RE: Changing Someone's Belief
(August 3, 2012 at 10:16 pm)Faith No More Wrote: If he is really looking for the truth, in the end, he would eventually be thankful that you led him to that truth. If he actually did say that he would be okay if Christianity is wrong, that may be an indication that he really does want to know what is the truth, because a lot of people, when faced with the idea that their beliefs are untrue, will kick and scream, insisting that whatever they believe to be the truth at that time is actually true. Normally, people are content to keep on believing what they believe as long as they seem to be reaping some benefits, so his statement that he would be okay with it not being true may actually be some sort of cry for help. At least, that's the way I see it.

Let's try and analyse the situation in its purest form. From experience on this forum, talking about individuals that I know but that you guys don't know is very hard.. in other words there's more to it than what I said in the OP. So I guess the thing I want to discuss is us being an influence that could potentially change the course of someone's life.

Quote:On another note, it would probably help your friend if you didn't flat out tell him that life is meaningless. While that may be true from a cosmological standpoint, that doesn't mean we can't make our individual lives meaningful. We have to examine our lives and find that meaning for ourselves. Sometimes I find that even the search for meaning gives my life meaning, as if the purpose of my life is to figure out what is meaningful to me.

I can only speak from personal experience, and I told him this, that when I woke up that day and realised I didn't believe anymore it was initially thrilling because it was a whole new sensation that I've never felt before--being freed of those shackles that defined my life. Now I think I'm haunted by the implications of what I believe to be the truth, that we are just a phenomena in this empty universe and will die. I know that we can find meaning for ourselves but it's not the same as waking up everyday thinking that you're going to meet your maker and live forever. Whether true or not, that is something that I believe is rooted deep within us which is the instinct to want to survive. Believers have essentially 'figured out' how to avoid eternal death, whether true or not. That is what they believe hands down and ultimately I think taking that away from someone is just as bad as physically harming them...

(August 3, 2012 at 10:34 pm)jonb Wrote: 'FallentoReason'

Yes I recognise that feeling, but after questioning your own motives, think about it in a different way. You are able to live with the truth, is not a bit arrogant of you to think your friend would find it more difficult than you, treat him as an equal give him the good news.

He was actually saying that it was dishonest of me to hold on to what could possibly be the truth and not share that with him. I just don't see what benefit he'll get from it. Everyday I think to myself how much I wish I hadn't (ironically) desired to become an apologist, which has led me to where I am now. Ignorance is bliss and if I had stayed ignorant I would be living my 'perfect' life where everything Christian in my life is prospering and I'm working towards my bright future. Now I find myself in this hole that I essentially dug myself where everything about my life is still heavily influenced by Christianity but I don't want anything to do with it. This could eventually be him and I couldn't live with myself knowing I've put someone in this position.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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#8
RE: Changing Someone's Belief
Firstly, I am thinking you are taking far too much onto yourself trying to direct this person's life. What influenced YOU?? Another person, their written words or actions??

Yes the hole is of your own making and is all in your own mind. I am thinking that if it was not you who told your friend YOUR opinions and experiences it would be another person. Me thinks thou ist in way too much teenage angst. Relax, give him you views because IF he goes ahead and becomes a pastor he will meet far worse than anything you can throw at him.
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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#9
RE: Changing Someone's Belief
(August 4, 2012 at 1:06 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Firstly, I am thinking you are taking far too much onto yourself trying to direct this person's life. What influenced YOU?? Another person, their written words or actions??
My honest search for truth.

Quote:Yes the hole is of your own making and is all in your own mind. I am thinking that if it was not you who told your friend YOUR opinions and experiences it would be another person. Me thinks thou ist in way too much teenage angst. Relax, give him you views because IF he goes ahead and becomes a pastor he will meet far worse than anything you can throw at him.

I don't want to carry the burden of what could potentially be the most negative thing to happen in his life. I've mentioned this before, but I have another friend that in passing said that non-believers should be having as much sex as possible because they believe in nothing else. It's things like this that I fear for. If these sorts of believers are let loose and they realise there's nothing holding them back they will cause so much harm to themselves.

Everyone's different, but the realisation that there's no greater truth will start the same sort of chain reaction in their minds...
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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#10
RE: Changing Someone's Belief
(August 4, 2012 at 1:16 am)FallentoReason Wrote:




Please I understand your dilemma. What I am saying is that if it is not you it will be someone or something else.

For me I would just give my opinion and stress that it is MY opinion and leave the rest up to your friend.

Who are we to judge that they will harm themselves? Perhaps take a leaf out of Neil deGrasse Tyson's book and tackle it from the angle of "gave up looking for TRUTH so started looking for what is true" ?
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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